Daily Sun Article 11/11

[Keith K \'93]

The first part of the R&R Pt2. words, "We're going to beat the hell out of you," was started by my grad student officemate, probably in the 95-96 season.  He was importing this from Miami University, where he'd gone for undergrad.  The second half of the tag "F--- 'em up, F--- 'em up, go CU" was added pretty quickly by the guys around us.  It definitley started in the more profane form.

Not sure how long it took for the entire crowd to catch on.

[Keith K \'93]

Can we stop arguing about freedom of speech on this topic?  It's been discussed before.  It's not a freedom of speech issue.  You don't have a constitutional right to swear at a private sporting event.

[skijmpr]

Last season I took my parents to one of the RPI first-round ECAC playoff games, and we sat in the middle of B (got extra tix from my friends who went to Europe for spring break).  I was a little worried about how they might react to some of the cheers, and prewarned them to expect a little lewdness.  Fortunately they didn't seem to take offense to any of it, and figured a little well-placed vulgarity could spice things up a bit.  However, I have to concur with the majority here in that cheers that are excessively vulgar should not be used in excess, lest they grow tiresome and immature, and undermine the Faithful's creativity.

Seasoned fans should politely let the nubians around them know if they do something wrong, such as say 'lose' instead of 'goon', jingle their keys with more than 5 minutes remaining, start the "funnel/vacuum/black hole" cheer when we're losing, throw stuff on the ice at any other time than just after announcements (and even then only items that could not injure somebody, and with a slight exception being smelly carp for Hahvahd, which are thrown as they skate onto the ice), carry out the word "die" during tubas for more than 3 seconds, and dance to the macho man song (unless sweater guy from SLU(t) is present).  Just came up with these off the top of my head, of what was annoying last season (sort of kidding about the macho man one though, I know some folks really enjoy that one ::screwy:: ).

In addition, veteran Faithful should set a good example for the newcomers by leading the cheers in a more respectable manner.  I personally feel we should abolish the "see ya" cheer and come up with something completely new, in light of the bad press it has received recently thanks to the Yost fans, and the fact that the cheer has become trite.  The "rough 'em up" cheer is a Lynah staple, and should continue to be upheld.  But the caveat remains for those who substitute a few words, and they have no basis for complaint should they happen to get tossed from a game.  By the way, I'm not a fan of the "you suck" that echoes the "sieve" in Gary Glitter because I feel it is overused, though I know some people have said that the added effect seems neat.

Anyone have ideas on what could replace the "see ya" cheer, or make it a Lynah trademark?

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]"you lose" most likely started last season. A friend of mine who sat in G told me that he heard people saying that, and we laughed about it often. Probably newbies/freshmen in F-G not really being able to hear clearly what was being said and heard "you goon" as "you lose."[/Q]
No, it's been around since at least '99, when I was a freshman and sat in G. It was the only version I heard around me - as you said, becuase you definitely can't make out the other sections words from G very well.

It's possible that it spread to A and B when people were were formerly in E, F, and G moved there, but I've never not heard it as the majority chant... having sat in G, E, E, E, the last four years, and now C/B.

[nyc94]

I don't want to argue this to death but could you a) point me to the thread where this was discussed before b) explain how Cornell hockey is a private event c) explain how swearing is not speech

[Drew]

I was in G last year and the few of us that were up at the top really tried to teach the newbies that it was 'goon' not 'lose', but it seemed that as the year went along people said lose more.  And now that I am in the townies section (or non-student Ithaca-area folk section,so that person doesn't come back and yell at me), I hear lose more and more.  One would think the townies would know better.  For my part I shall not let the front few rows of L say 'lose':)

[ugarte]

Bill '94 wrote:

I don't want to argue this to death but could you a) point me to the thread where this was discussed before b) explain how Cornell hockey is a private event c) explain how swearing is not speech

I'm not an archives trawler, but we definitely covered the crackdown on profanity many times before.  Probably as long ago as eLF's daddy, CHDF.

Swearing is obviously speech.  But freedom of speech isn't "the right to speak in public" it is the right not to be censored by a government authority.  Even that right, however, is subject to "time, place and manner" restrictions.  That is why it is OK to see strippers at Scores, but NYC could keep them off of the Great Lawn of Central Park during lunch.  Curbing profanity in public places is fair game (even if not always fair game, as in Cohen v. Ohio, the "Fuck the Draft" case).

But Cornell squelching profanity at hockey games isn't in the same category.  Cornell is a private institution, not a governmental authority, even though some of the colleges are partially publicly supported.  Lynah Rink is a private facility, and purchasing a ticket to see a game is not an all-access pass, it is a limited license, with the terms and conditions of that license printed on the back and stated in multiple places around the facility. (The public/private distinction is admittedly blurrier with respect to admissions, particularly in the statutory colleges, but this post is already too long.)

There is no First Amendment issue in play when the AD says "no screaming asshole in a crowded rink".



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:13)

[nyc94]

I understand the legal points of what you're saying but I guess I'm just uncomfortable with the University's constant drive toward polical correctness - exincluding the profanity.  I can't find the policy on the Cornell Athletic's web site or via a Google search so can someone fill me in on what is printed on the tickets and/or the signs at Lynah?  I did come across an editorial from last year's Sun (http://www.cornelldailysun.com/articles/6744/) and someone got their tickets yanked because "other students who felt harassed by the profanity of his cheers and the anti-gay remarks he made to the opposing team" complained to the JA.  So we aren't just talking about profanity.  Apparently "your boyfriend called" might just get you kicked out.  And is it uniformly applied by each usher?  Do they conference before the season like the NFL refs to go over what is unacceptable?



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:43)

[atb9]

[Q]"You got to respect the Lynah Faithful," he said. "Basically, nobody knows the policy... and nobody knows you can lose your season's tickets." [/Q]

The above quote really hit me.  The Lynah Faithful know the rules: we have all seen the ushers stalking down the aisles and we have all seen people get kicked out in the student sections (among the many other indicators).  The whole article reminded me of WalterBrownArena and his emotional outburst about Cornell and Broadway, etc.

From discussions with other well respected student leaders on campus, Linder blew this one by going to the Sun and he really tarnished his image by making some emotional statements.  Most important thing though...give it a day or two and people will forget.



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:42)

[rhovorka]

[q]I can't find the policy on the Cornell Athletic's web site or via a Google search so can someone fill me in on what is printed on the tickets and/or the signs at Lynah?[/q]
TO THE HOLDER OF THIS TICKET
This ticket is a revocable license which may be withdrawn at any time for any reason.  No alcoholic beverages, containers, coolers, controlled substances, weapons, etc. will be allowed on the premises.  Any person who engages in disorderly or disruptive conduct such as profanity and abusive or threatening language, or the throwing of objects, shall be subject to removal without refund.  
The holder assumes all risk and danger incidental to the attraction whether occurring prior to, during, or subsequently to the actual attraction and agrees that the management and its agents and players are not liable for injuries resulting from the attendance at the attraction.

THIS TICKET WILL NOT BE REPLACED, REFUNDED, OR EXCHANGED FOR ANY REASON.  EVENT TIME AND/OR DATE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE.  TICKETS ARE NOT REDEEMABLE FOR CASH.
NOTE: Those leaving the event must have ticket to re-enter.

[nyc94]

I reread the article and I don't understand what this line has to do with anything:

"According to the NCAA Men's and Women's Ice Hockey Rules and Interpretations, "A coach or other non-playing person connected with a team shall not use foul or abusive language; obscene gestures; threatening language or gestures to an official or opposing players either before or during a game." "

"It's an NCAA rule, and we are an NCAA institution," explained Gene Nighman '81, director of Athletic Tickets and Events, who is in charge of enforcing the rule.

Is a fan considered a "non-playing person connected with a team"?  I would have thought that applied to the trainers, equipment manager, etc.  Is this a misquote on the Sun's part or a misapplication of the rule by Nighman?

[ugarte]

Bill '94 wrote:

I reread the article and I don't understand what this line has to do with anything:

"According to the NCAA Men's and Women's Ice Hockey Rules and Interpretations, "A coach or other non-playing person connected with a team shall not use foul or abusive language; obscene gestures; threatening language or gestures to an official or opposing players either before or during a game." "

"It's an NCAA rule, and we are an NCAA institution," explained Gene Nighman '81, director of Athletic Tickets and Events, who is in charge of enforcing the rule.

Is a fan considered a "non-playing person connected with a team"?  I would have thought that applied to the trainers, equipment manager, etc.  Is this a misquote on the Sun's part or a misapplication of the rule by Nighman?

I agree with you on this one, Bill.  It strikes me as an overbroad application of the literal language of the rule. Specifically, an interpretation used in a pass-the-buck manner by a person lacking the guts to defend the policy strictly on its own terms.

[nyc94]

Thanks for posting the policy.  To me it is pretty vague.  I suppose we can almost all agree on what is profanity although I really dislike the "I know it when I see it approach."  Linder should have had the sense to know asshole was going to be a problem.  As for "abusive or threatening language" it seems like it almost the whim of the usher.  Catch him on a bad night. . . .

And as for Adam's comment "we have all seen the ushers stalking down the aisles" I'm glad I graduated when I did.

[Keith K \'93]

Technically I think the fans are probably covered by the rules about foul language cited here.  But it's still a pretty dumb thing to say.  I've never heard of a team being penalized for the language used by fans.  It probbaly would never be used unless and until fans' behavior/language actually became a genuine threat to the opposing team, in which case I'd guess the refs would be more likely to award a win by forfeit than a 2 minute penalty.

[Keith K \'93]

Bill, I agree about the appropriateness of the policy - I don't like it and it hasn't always been enforced in a way that's fair to students.  I just get annoyed at spurious First Amendment claims.

And yes, the enforcement can be arbitrary and subjective (or at least it seemed so when I last had season tickets, five years ago).