Money: Cornellians lost to (and gained from) the portal

[abmarks]

That part I got. But his reasoning for transferring is what I want to know, and that is still a mystery. Did he transfer because he though Wisconsin would give him a better opportunity to sign pro? Because he was struggling in school/didn't want to go to class anymore? "He only cares about hockey" seems clear, but why transfer? I can think of several reasons, but we don't have much clarity as to the ones that led to the decision, other than maybe a vague allusion to the "education" bit.

I think it's pretty clear that if he doesn't care about the degree and is ready to jump ship to the pros ASAP, he'd rather be someplace that has the B1G's NIL budget, scholarship generosity and academic support (TAs who will take his exams). I don't know if Cornell's coaching/schedule came into it at all but it seems secondary. I honestly doubt that MTL cares very much which program he was at. 

That's true but it seems relevant which of those purported reasons was decisive. It's vague as to which of the following affected his decision and to what degree:
—he wanted more of a challenge (I suspect it's not this but that's basically the answer he gave to the Wisconsin journalist)
-money, whether scholarship or NIL (not mentioned in either of the articles but could of course be a reason)
-he didn't want to go to school (sort of alluded to by Casey but only if you squint)

I know people roll their eyes when I harp on this stuff but it's a lot different if a kid is dipping because he has to pay tuition versus because he thinks the ECAC is weak versus because he isn't a serious student. Yeah the answer could be "all of the above" but in terms of future recruiting it's good to know why a player like this would leave Cornell when so many other good players do not. The coaching staff got burned and it'd be nice to not have that happen again.

roll my eyes is one way to say it ... I mean, if you think the definition of journalism is forcing a run-of-the-mill college hockey player to confess, on the record, all of his deep thoughts about why he transferred, just to satisfy the burning curiosity of 10 people who absolutely need to know or it will kill them ... then ... good luck waiting on that.

You've been given way more to infer on this one case, either by my comments here or Jane's articles, than 99.9% of all the other 200 kids that transferred last week and pissed off the fans/coaches of the place they left.

She had Casey on the record. I was hopeful this would reveal more than we already knew, but it didn't. Not expecting her to grill Cournoyer, obviously. I think Jane is a promising journalist and the Sun's hockey coverage has been great, to be clear. But people wanted to know why he transferred and it's still extremely murky.

Do you honestly expect Casey to trash a kid on the record, or that it would be a good idea if he did?

I mean, this goes for every other coach too.

"Well, the kid is clueless, he lied to us in his meeting and then had his agent start calling around. Turns out he wasn't a good student and he decided he wanted the money more than a Cornell education."

What would be the benefit in a coach saying something like this? Assuming this is true.

I would have asked: "Did Cournoyer provide a reason for transferring?" and "when did he inform you of the transfer?", to start. You're gonna get coach-speak either way, but at least this way we'd get more specificity while not forcing Casey to disclose anything he doesn't want to. 

Why don't you ask her on twitter then?

[Trotsky]

[stereax]

I still think anyone who thinks a future employer will give the slightest shit about this is bonkers.

Nope—you're wrong. I've seen it firsthand. Employers absolutely do look, and it factors in. Call it old-school if you want, but it still carries weight. Every young person should assume a future employer will go through their social media.

I think three things are true:

1) In the hockey world, this probably doesn't mean much. Especially given that in the NHL, you have these things called "contracts" which guarantee loyalty.

2) In the professional world, moving schools in and of itself is not necessarily a red flag. Even if it is a "downgrade" from an Ivy. Especially if you can cite D1 sports as why.

3) That being said, the article in its entirety puts Cournoyer in a pretty bad light, especially with Casey's quotes about being blindsided and about the value of education. If Cournoyer doesn't hack it at the NHL level and is a finance bro in 10 years who doesn't have connections to land him a job, as a hiring manager, that looks pretty bad to me - not that he transferred, but HOW he did it, putting the team in a really bad spot.

(Also, 4) I'm not gonna pile on a guy whose first language isn't English for making grammatical mistakes in English.)

[stereax]

You'd think with a Russian transfer, maybe the Cyrillic bots would be appeased... 😂

[Chris '03]

I still think anyone who thinks a future employer will give the slightest shit about this is bonkers.

Nope—you're wrong. I've seen it firsthand. Employers absolutely do look, and it factors in. Call it old-school if you want, but it still carries weight. Every young person should assume a future employer will go through their social media.

You've seen it firsthand that a kid switched schools for an athletic opportunity and it was perceived so negatively that it was the deciding factor in offering a job in a field unrelated to athletics?

I can see XYZ university that his agent calls next spring for another transfer being spooked by this but not random Quebec business in five years.

[Snowball]

I still think anyone who thinks a future employer will give the slightest shit about this is bonkers.

Nope—you're wrong. I've seen it firsthand. Employers absolutely do look, and it factors in. Call it old-school if you want, but it still carries weight. Every young person should assume a future employer will go through their social media.

You've seen it firsthand that a kid switched schools for an athletic opportunity and it was perceived so negatively that it was the deciding factor in offering a job in a field unrelated to athletics?

Obviously not the exact same circumstances, but you knew that, didn't you?

What she said, not the transfer itself, but how he did it:

3) That being said, the article in its entirety puts Cournoyer in a pretty bad light, especially with Casey's quotes about being blindsided and about the value of education. If Cournoyer doesn't hack it at the NHL level and is a finance bro in 10 years who doesn't have connections to land him a job, as a hiring manager, that looks pretty bad to me - not that he transferred, but HOW he did it, putting the team in a really bad spot.

He's young, and young people deserve some grace for their behavior. I sincerely hope he learns that he should have handled this differently. As others have said, he probably didn't get good advice.

[stereax]

He's young, and young people deserve some grace for their behavior. I sincerely hope he learns that he should have handled this differently. As others have said, he probably didn't get good advice.

Hopefully he gets what he was told he would at Wisconsin.

And hopefully Rousseau steps in seamlessly as the Quebecois goalie replacement. (Hey, maybe he'll be best buds with Veilleux too!)

Relatedly, the title of this article being "He was taking too many penalties in youth hockey, so his mom made him switch to goalie" (about Rousseau) is hysterical.

Also! He likes playing the puck! Stretch passes!!! STRETCH PASSES!!!

[ugarte]

He's young, and young people deserve some grace for their behavior. I sincerely hope he learns that he should have handled this differently. As others have said, he probably didn't get good advice.

I repeat: bonkers. From the outside, without the sting of betrayal we are feeling, those quotes are pablum. All he did is transfer schools to play hockey. Some hypothetical insurance agency in 2037 that he sends a resume to after hanging up the skates is not going to care especially if he gets even close to the NHL.

If you are a regular person in college do not post wild shit on Instagram before your first job hunt. If you are a highly sought after goalie prospect you can say "i am pursuing a better opportunity" while transferring.

You want it to be one way but it's the other way.

[Chris '03]

I still think anyone who thinks a future employer will give the slightest shit about this is bonkers.

Nope—you're wrong. I've seen it firsthand. Employers absolutely do look, and it factors in. Call it old-school if you want, but it still carries weight. Every young person should assume a future employer will go through their social media.

You've seen it firsthand that a kid switched schools for an athletic opportunity and it was perceived so negatively that it was the deciding factor in offering a job in a field unrelated to athletics?

Obviously not the exact same circumstances, but you knew that, didn't you?

What she said, not the transfer itself, but how he did it:

3) That being said, the article in its entirety puts Cournoyer in a pretty bad light, especially with Casey's quotes about being blindsided and about the value of education. If Cournoyer doesn't hack it at the NHL level and is a finance bro in 10 years who doesn't have connections to land him a job, as a hiring manager, that looks pretty bad to me - not that he transferred, but HOW he did it, putting the team in a really bad spot.

He's young, and young people deserve some grace for their behavior. I sincerely hope he learns that he should have handled this differently. As others have said, he probably didn't get good advice.

What's the "it" you've seen first hand then?  You were awfully confident telling Ugarte he's wrong.

I've hired plenty of people.  I've represented plenty of people who have hired plenty more people across a range of industries.  I agree with Ugarte in thinking no one cares.  People jump jobs all the time and frequently in ways that are poorly timed for their employer or handled in a way that the spurned party feels is unfair or wrong.  That doesn't make them unemployable.  It makes them average.

[BearLover]

That part I got. But his reasoning for transferring is what I want to know, and that is still a mystery. Did he transfer because he though Wisconsin would give him a better opportunity to sign pro? Because he was struggling in school/didn't want to go to class anymore? "He only cares about hockey" seems clear, but why transfer? I can think of several reasons, but we don't have much clarity as to the ones that led to the decision, other than maybe a vague allusion to the "education" bit.

I think it's pretty clear that if he doesn't care about the degree and is ready to jump ship to the pros ASAP, he'd rather be someplace that has the B1G's NIL budget, scholarship generosity and academic support (TAs who will take his exams). I don't know if Cornell's coaching/schedule came into it at all but it seems secondary. I honestly doubt that MTL cares very much which program he was at. 

That's true but it seems relevant which of those purported reasons was decisive. It's vague as to which of the following affected his decision and to what degree:
—he wanted more of a challenge (I suspect it's not this but that's basically the answer he gave to the Wisconsin journalist)
-money, whether scholarship or NIL (not mentioned in either of the articles but could of course be a reason)
-he didn't want to go to school (sort of alluded to by Casey but only if you squint)

I know people roll their eyes when I harp on this stuff but it's a lot different if a kid is dipping because he has to pay tuition versus because he thinks the ECAC is weak versus because he isn't a serious student. Yeah the answer could be "all of the above" but in terms of future recruiting it's good to know why a player like this would leave Cornell when so many other good players do not. The coaching staff got burned and it'd be nice to not have that happen again.

roll my eyes is one way to say it ... I mean, if you think the definition of journalism is forcing a run-of-the-mill college hockey player to confess, on the record, all of his deep thoughts about why he transferred, just to satisfy the burning curiosity of 10 people who absolutely need to know or it will kill them ... then ... good luck waiting on that.

You've been given way more to infer on this one case, either by my comments here or Jane's articles, than 99.9% of all the other 200 kids that transferred last week and pissed off the fans/coaches of the place they left.

She had Casey on the record. I was hopeful this would reveal more than we already knew, but it didn't. Not expecting her to grill Cournoyer, obviously. I think Jane is a promising journalist and the Sun's hockey coverage has been great, to be clear. But people wanted to know why he transferred and it's still extremely murky.

And it's none of your business.

I'm sorry if it offends you that the media covers the comings and goings of college athletes but you should get used to it.

The media can cover it as it will but the fact that you can't get all the answers you want is just too damn bad.  Stop your whining.  Cournoyer is gone.  You, as always, have to have someone to blame.  Preferably, as always for you, a Cornell coach.

Yawn. *taps the sign*: https://elf.elynah.com/index.php?topic=270518.msg285337#msg285337

[marty]

That part I got. But his reasoning for transferring is what I want to know, and that is still a mystery. Did he transfer because he though Wisconsin would give him a better opportunity to sign pro? Because he was struggling in school/didn't want to go to class anymore? "He only cares about hockey" seems clear, but why transfer? I can think of several reasons, but we don't have much clarity as to the ones that led to the decision, other than maybe a vague allusion to the "education" bit.

I think it's pretty clear that if he doesn't care about the degree and is ready to jump ship to the pros ASAP, he'd rather be someplace that has the B1G's NIL budget, scholarship generosity and academic support (TAs who will take his exams). I don't know if Cornell's coaching/schedule came into it at all but it seems secondary. I honestly doubt that MTL cares very much which program he was at. 

That's true but it seems relevant which of those purported reasons was decisive. It's vague as to which of the following affected his decision and to what degree:
—he wanted more of a challenge (I suspect it's not this but that's basically the answer he gave to the Wisconsin journalist)
-money, whether scholarship or NIL (not mentioned in either of the articles but could of course be a reason)
-he didn't want to go to school (sort of alluded to by Casey but only if you squint)

I know people roll their eyes when I harp on this stuff but it's a lot different if a kid is dipping because he has to pay tuition versus because he thinks the ECAC is weak versus because he isn't a serious student. Yeah the answer could be "all of the above" but in terms of future recruiting it's good to know why a player like this would leave Cornell when so many other good players do not. The coaching staff got burned and it'd be nice to not have that happen again.

roll my eyes is one way to say it ... I mean, if you think the definition of journalism is forcing a run-of-the-mill college hockey player to confess, on the record, all of his deep thoughts about why he transferred, just to satisfy the burning curiosity of 10 people who absolutely need to know or it will kill them ... then ... good luck waiting on that.

You've been given way more to infer on this one case, either by my comments here or Jane's articles, than 99.9% of all the other 200 kids that transferred last week and pissed off the fans/coaches of the place they left.

She had Casey on the record. I was hopeful this would reveal more than we already knew, but it didn't. Not expecting her to grill Cournoyer, obviously. I think Jane is a promising journalist and the Sun's hockey coverage has been great, to be clear. But people wanted to know why he transferred and it's still extremely murky.

And it's none of your business.

I'm sorry if it offends you that the media covers the comings and goings of college athletes but you should get used to it.

The media can cover it as it will but the fact that you can't get all the answers you want is just too damn bad.  Stop your whining.  Cournoyer is gone.  You, as always, have to have someone to blame.  Preferably, as always for you, a Cornell coach.

Yawn. *taps the sign*: https://elf.elynah.com/index.php?topic=270518.msg285337#msg285337

If you think that Al or any other critics of your incessant stream of (lack of) thought postings are going to take advice from you, your delusions only prove our conclusions.

[BearLover]

That part I got. But his reasoning for transferring is what I want to know, and that is still a mystery. Did he transfer because he though Wisconsin would give him a better opportunity to sign pro? Because he was struggling in school/didn't want to go to class anymore? "He only cares about hockey" seems clear, but why transfer? I can think of several reasons, but we don't have much clarity as to the ones that led to the decision, other than maybe a vague allusion to the "education" bit.

I think it's pretty clear that if he doesn't care about the degree and is ready to jump ship to the pros ASAP, he'd rather be someplace that has the B1G's NIL budget, scholarship generosity and academic support (TAs who will take his exams). I don't know if Cornell's coaching/schedule came into it at all but it seems secondary. I honestly doubt that MTL cares very much which program he was at. 

That's true but it seems relevant which of those purported reasons was decisive. It's vague as to which of the following affected his decision and to what degree:
—he wanted more of a challenge (I suspect it's not this but that's basically the answer he gave to the Wisconsin journalist)
-money, whether scholarship or NIL (not mentioned in either of the articles but could of course be a reason)
-he didn't want to go to school (sort of alluded to by Casey but only if you squint)

I know people roll their eyes when I harp on this stuff but it's a lot different if a kid is dipping because he has to pay tuition versus because he thinks the ECAC is weak versus because he isn't a serious student. Yeah the answer could be "all of the above" but in terms of future recruiting it's good to know why a player like this would leave Cornell when so many other good players do not. The coaching staff got burned and it'd be nice to not have that happen again.

roll my eyes is one way to say it ... I mean, if you think the definition of journalism is forcing a run-of-the-mill college hockey player to confess, on the record, all of his deep thoughts about why he transferred, just to satisfy the burning curiosity of 10 people who absolutely need to know or it will kill them ... then ... good luck waiting on that.

You've been given way more to infer on this one case, either by my comments here or Jane's articles, than 99.9% of all the other 200 kids that transferred last week and pissed off the fans/coaches of the place they left.

She had Casey on the record. I was hopeful this would reveal more than we already knew, but it didn't. Not expecting her to grill Cournoyer, obviously. I think Jane is a promising journalist and the Sun's hockey coverage has been great, to be clear. But people wanted to know why he transferred and it's still extremely murky.

And it's none of your business.

I'm sorry if it offends you that the media covers the comings and goings of college athletes but you should get used to it.

The media can cover it as it will but the fact that you can't get all the answers you want is just too damn bad.  Stop your whining.  Cournoyer is gone.  You, as always, have to have someone to blame.  Preferably, as always for you, a Cornell coach.

Yawn. *taps the sign*: https://elf.elynah.com/index.php?topic=270518.msg285337#msg285337

If you think that Al or any other critics of your incessant stream of (lack of) thought postings are going to take advice from you, your delusions only prove our conclusions.

*Taps  the sign*: https://elf.elynah.com/index.php?topic=270518.msg285337#msg285337

[BearLover]

1. Cournoyer changing schools for hockey reasons is not gonna affect this kid's career. He's not seeking a business job. He's trying to make it in hockey, he'll probably fail, and when he fails he'll end up working some random-ass job in Quebec in 7-10 years. Him bouncing around schools to play hockey is inconsequential. Nobody hiring him is going to care.

2. His decision to leave Cornell is obviously itself consequential because he could have gotten a cushy finance job if he stuck it out and put in an effort academically, but that's separate from the discussion about how an employer views an applicant who bounced around schools. Also, sounds like he had no desire to pursue this path. He's not a serious student.

3. I'm still confused why everyone feels so betrayed by Cournoyer dipping but didn't bat an eye when Robertson did the same. It's the same story in my book - one of our best players ditches personal and team success for the Big 10. Robertson had one of the best years for a freshman defenseman in Cornell history, and while he had a down sophomore year, the team won back to back ECAC Championships! His leaving was much more inexplicable than Cournoyer leaving, given Cournoyer's background (CHL overager, draft pick, seemingly unserious student, etc.). People are now saying far meaner things about Cournoyer than I ever said about Robertson. Unsurprisingly, the Al Deflorios and martys of the world don't care.

4. People seem hung up on his transfer to Wisconsin specifically but it sounds like he wanted out of Cornell regardless. So there are two discrete parts here: (1) his decision to leave Cornell, and (2) his decision to choose Wisconsin out of potential suitors. It may well be the case that, once he decided to transfer, he didn't have many great options - few top programs needed a goalie or wanted to take him. So he went with the one top program that would take him, even if it meant a goalie battle, which may end up putting him in a worse position than he was in this past season. But that is separate from part (1), his decision to leave Cornell, which it sounded like he was committed to doing regardless. I think it's more insightful to view these decisions as discrete parts, even though they're related.

[Will]

3. I'm still confused why everyone feels so betrayed by Cournoyer dipping but didn't bat an eye when Robertson did the same. It's the same story in my book - one of our best players ditches personal and team success for the Big 10. Robertson had one of the best years for a freshman defenseman in Cornell history, and while he had a down sophomore year, the team won back to back ECAC Championships! His leaving was much more inexplicable than Cournoyer leaving, given Cournoyer's background (CHL overager, draft pick, seemingly unserious student, etc.). People are now saying far meaner things about Cournoyer than I ever said about Robertson. Unsurprisingly, the Al Deflorios and martys of the world don't care.

It's the unique set of circumstances surrounding Cournoyer's departure.  Robertson was a great defenseman, but one defenseman is more easily replaced than the starting goaltender, particularly when the two other returning goalies are very clearly perennial backups.  Cournoyer had a good (but not *great*) freshman year, showing a lot of promise but clearly still with some room for improvement.  The way it came out shocked everyone, which is not surprising for fans, but the idea that the coaching staff was also blindsided leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths.  And the quotes about leaving Cornell for an allegedly better opportunity elsewhere within the college ranks can only be taken as an insult to Cornell, a program well known for producing great goaltending.  I think if Cournoyer had simply left early for the pros, the fans might not be quite as upset over everything (but still a little upset).

[Snowball]

I still think anyone who thinks a future employer will give the slightest shit about this is bonkers.

Nope—you're wrong. I've seen it firsthand. Employers absolutely do look, and it factors in. Call it old-school if you want, but it still carries weight. Every young person should assume a future employer will go through their social media.

You've seen it firsthand that a kid switched schools for an athletic opportunity and it was perceived so negatively that it was the deciding factor in offering a job in a field unrelated to athletics?

Obviously not the exact same circumstances, but you knew that, didn't you?

What she said, not the transfer itself, but how he did it:

3) That being said, the article in its entirety puts Cournoyer in a pretty bad light, especially with Casey's quotes about being blindsided and about the value of education. If Cournoyer doesn't hack it at the NHL level and is a finance bro in 10 years who doesn't have connections to land him a job, as a hiring manager, that looks pretty bad to me - not that he transferred, but HOW he did it, putting the team in a really bad spot.

He's young, and young people deserve some grace for their behavior. I sincerely hope he learns that he should have handled this differently. As others have said, he probably didn't get good advice.

What's the "it" you've seen first hand then?  You were awfully confident telling Ugarte he's wrong.

I've hired plenty of people.  I've represented plenty of people who have hired plenty more people across a range of industries.  I agree with Ugarte in thinking no one cares.  People jump jobs all the time and frequently in ways that are poorly timed for their employer or handled in a way that the spurned party feels is unfair or wrong.  That doesn't make them unemployable.  It makes them average.

You're right: people change jobs all the time. That alone isn't disqualifying.

I've personally seen a colleague lose a bank job offer over a social media post, not because of movement, but because it raised questions about his judgment, and the bank didn't want its clients associating that with them.

No, one move doesn't make someone unemployable. But to say "no one cares" just isn't reality. In competitive fields, small signals are exactly how people differentiate candidates when everyone looks similar on paper.

And this isn't "average job mobility." It's a freshman, starting goalie, award winner, and NHL draft pick leaving immediately after Year 1. The  Sun article adds context that makes it worse:  the blindsiding of the coaching staff, the implication that he doesn't value an education, it raises questions about judgment and priorities.

You don't have to agree with how people interpret that. But you can't seriously argue it's  a good look that it carries zero signal. Maybe he will succeed in the NHL and it's moot, maybe he will never apply for the kind of job that will do a deep dive into him. But if he ever ends up in a setting where people do look closely...