OT: Baseball scoring

[Greg Berge]

1) A player bats in place of the DH.  Is he a pinch hitter, or just the new DH?

2) A runner advances from second to third on a deep fly out.  How is that scored?  It seems dumb to call it a FC -- it isn't as if the F had much of a C.

[Jordan 04]

[q]
1) A player bats in place of the DH. Is he a pinch hitter, or just the new DH?
[/q]

Rules 6.10 -- Pinch hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter.

So, just like any other situation, when the guy comes to bat, he's a pinch hitter, then he becomes the DH.  Unless of course you want to put him out in the field, but then you lose the DH.

[q]2) A runner advances from second to third on a deep fly out. How is that scored? It seems dumb to call it a FC -- it isn't as if the F had much of a C.[/q]

I believe this is just a putout recorded to the fielder.   Nothing more to it.

[DeltaOne81]

SF: Sacrifice Fly

[Jordan 04]

Actually, from what I can decipher from rules 10.08 and 10.09, http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_official_scorer.jsp, plus the this portion, HOW TO PROVE A BOX SCORE (c) A box score is in balance (or proved) when the total of the team's times at bat, bases on balls received, hit batters, sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flies and batters awarded first base because of interference or obstruction equals the total of that team's runs, players left on base and the opposing team's putouts, plus my years watching and going to games, a SF is not awarded for advancing a runner from 2nd to 3rd (or from 1st to 2nd, or 1st to 3rd) on a fly out.

[ugarte]

It isn't a sacrifice fly:

"Rule 10.09: . . . (e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

It is just a 7/8/9 for the batter ( By the way, why was 6 afraid of 7?), and the scorebook should indicate that the runner moved up on the flyout.

[jtwcornell91]

IIRC, the DH rule not only prevents you from doing anything that would lead to an inconsistent batting order, but also forbids somewhat logical changes, like having the pitcher pinch-hit for the DH.  Just another reason to regard it as unnatural and aesthetically unsatisfying.

I think the distinction between a runner advancing as a result of a fielder's choice or by virtue of the batter's actions is only significant when the base being advanced to is first or home.  I'd give the batter credit with advancing the runner, just as if he'd hit a slowish ground ball to the right side of the infield.

Haven't really had to think about these issues since I was in Switzerland, and was one of the three or four people in Bern who could keep score.

[DeltaOne81]

Okay, so if it's not technically a sacrifice fly, what is it? While Jordan's statement is logical, another cardinal rule of baseball scorecards is that everything happens for a reason. What's the reason he moved from 2nd to 3rd? Could it just be he got to 3rd on a fly out? Fielder's choice (which Greg is right, would be a misnomer in this case)? Those are the only two possibilities I can come up with.

[tml5]

It's a flyout with the runner advancing on the play.  Different people note this in different ways, but it is neither a fielder's choice nor a sac fly.  I believe it's socred the same way as a ground ball where the runner advances and the batter is out.  IIRC, that is not a fielder's choice because the batter does not reach safely.

How about this one - how would you score a triple play where a single fielder is responsible for all three putouts?

[Josh '99]

Tom Lento wrote:

How about this one - how would you score a triple play where a single fielder is responsible for all three putouts?

Runners on first and second, nobody out.  Runners are put in motion, batter hits a sharp liner to the second baseman, catches it, tags the runner from first, runs to second and tags the bag to complete the unassisted triple play.  If this is the situation, I'd score it 4-4-4, catch-tag-base.

[jtwcornell91]

I'd write LTP-4 in the boxes of the batter and both runners, with a circled number next to each indicating which out it was, so the batter gets a circled 1, the runner from first a 2, and the runner from second a 3.

[DeltaOne81]

Believe it's scored the same way as a ground ball where the runner advances and the batter is out. IIRC, that is not a fielder's choice because the batter does not reach safely.

Actually, that's exactly a fielder's choice. The fielder had the choice to try to throw out the man going to second, or to try to throw out the batter going to first. He chose to get the guy at first. The batter is therefore out on a fielder's choice, which won't count as an at-bat (much like a walk), so that it doesn't count against his average since he deserves credit for advancing the runner .

In the same logic, had the fielder gone to 2nd and the batter was safe at first, he's safe on the FC because he doesn't really deserve credit for a hit when he could have easily been out. FYI, 'failed' double play attempts also end up as FCs.

So since Sac Fly and FC both seem wrong in this, we're sorta still stuck - almost seems like a steal, but of course it's not. I'll consult some hardcore baseball fans tonight.

-Fred

NEW INFO: What about the simple concept of advancing on the fly out, which we had been missing. He gets to third on the F7 or F8 or F9, seems simple and accurate.

[Al DeFlorio]

DeltaOne81 '03 wrote:

Actually, that's exactly a fielder's choice. The fielder had the choice to try to throw out the man going to second, or to try to throw out the batter going to first. He chose to get the guy at first. The batter is therefore out on a fielder's choice, which won't count as an at-bat (much like a walk), so that it doesn't count against his average since he deserves credit for advancing the runner .

If the batter swings away and is thrown out at first, he's charged with an at bat--regardless of who advances where.  If he lays down a bunt and advances a runner while being thrown out at first, it's a "sacrifice" and there is no at bat.  In the former situation, if the batter has hit a ground ball to the right side and a runner on second advances to third as a result, the batter gets an "attaboy" from his manager to make him feel better about being charged with an at bat.

[rhovorka]

I guess I'll lend my comments since I worked as an official scorer for 3 years.  Even though I don't understand why this is on a hockey board.

[Q]Actually, that's exactly a fielder's choice. The fielder had the choice to try to throw out the man going to second, or to try to throw out the batter going to first. He chose to get the guy at first. The batter is therefore out on a fielder's choice, which won't count as an at-bat (much like a walk), so that it doesn't count against his average since he deserves credit for advancing the runner . [/Q]  A fielder's choice most definitely counts as an official at-bat, unless it is a sacrifice bunt.  And that is up to the scorer to decide if it was a sacrifice or not.  If a player is judged to be bunting primarily for the purpose of a base-hit, no sacrifice is awarded, and an at-bat is charged.

As for the original question of a runner advancing from 2nd to 3rd, the scoring is a flyout, with the runner advancing on the play.  No sacrifice fly is awarded, and a time at-bat is charged.

One of my favorite scoring quirks is that a batter is not credited with an RBI if a run scores on a ground ball force double-play.

[Greg Berge]

>  By the way, why was 6 afraid of 7?

Nobody bit on this, so I will.  Because he'd always just come out of left field?

> So since Sac Fly and FC both seem wrong in this, we're sorta still stuck - almost seems like a steal, but of course it's not.

Up through the early 20th century, an even more counter-intuitive situation was credited as a stolen base: advancing an extra, unforced base on a hit (for instance, going from 1st to 3rd on a single).  This is why early SB stats like Ty Cobb's are very high.

I score the advance on the deep fly as a "TU" ("tag up"), in the absence of a good reason to call it anything else.

[RichS]

Agree on all counts.  I also have done my share of scoring.

The sac bunt call is an interesting one since the official scorer has to exercise judgement in deciding if the batter was intending to sacrifice or was bunting for a base hit.  Usually, they'd call it a sac if the batter squared around..an indication that he was "giving himself up".

Of course, so few guys bunt anymore....and a lot of the efforts you see are pathetic by even the bunting standards of the 70s and 80s!