OT: Baseball scoring

[ugarte]

[Q]Actually, that's exactly a fielder's choice.[/Q]

That just misinterprets what "Fielder's Choice" means - you are being too literal.  FC is only appropriate to note the fact that a batter is on base because the fielder "chose" to eliminate a runner other than the batter, and the scorebook has to designate it as something other than a hit, and something for which an at-bat is charged.  As Al said, advancing a runner with a ground ball on a 4-3 is just a groundout, even if it gets the "fundamentals" junkies excessively excited.

By the way, Greg - not bad.

[jtwcornell91]

A fielder's choice is also a necessary designation when a batter takes an extra base while the defense attempts to throw one of the runners out, to make a distinction between, e.g., a double and a single where the batter takes second on a throw to the plate.

[RichS]

John,

I have never heard the term "fielder's choice" used to explain a runner advancing in the situation you mentioned, typically a throw from the outfield.  Have you actually heard that usage?

That advance is simply explained as "he took third on the throw home", for example.

[Al DeFlorio]

RichS wrote:

John,

I have never heard the term "fielder's choice" used to explain a runner advancing in the situation you mentioned, typically a throw from the outfield.  Have you actually heard that usage?

That advance is simply explained as "he took third on the throw home", for example.

Yes, but how does one explain the runner's presence at third base in that tiny little box on the scorecard that affords little space for lengthy explanations?

[rhovorka]

John is correct; the batter advancing on a throw to an additional base is scored a fielder's choice.  

[Q]Rule 10.07
"(b) When, with one or more runners on base, the batter advances more than one base on a safe hit and the defensive team makes an attempt to put out a preceding runner, the scorer shall determine whether the batter made a legitimate two base hit or three base hit, or whether he advanced beyond first base on the fielder's choice. "[/Q]

[ugarte]

I don't disagree with the quote from the rule (how could I?), but that is still a hit, and would be scored a single.  Although it is a result of the fielder's choice, would you write "FC" in the scorebook? I would probably just write a dash in the second corner, indicating that the batter reached second on a single.  If I had room (say, in a real scorebook, not the one in the game program) I would indicate the play specifically in the notes column.

[rhovorka]

For the most common example, A runner is on 2nd.  On a base hit, the runner attempts to score which draws an outfielder's throw home.   the batter advances to second during the play at the plate.  It should be scored a single, and a fielder's choice allowing the batter to reach 2nd.

So...the runner from 2nd scores (or is thrown out) on the hit.
The batter reaches first on a single (a base hit, obviously).
The batter advances to 2nd on the FC.

The only reason that the fielder's choice is needed in this case is to justify why the hit isn't ruled a double.

Basically, the official scorer has a large number of subjective judgement calls to make.  The Official Rules attempt to simplify and validate odd cases that might arise by giving guidelines, but the scorer's judgement is the final word.  In this example, it's entirely within the scorer's right to rule the batter's hit a double (instead of a single and FC), if he judges that he would have reached 2nd safely without a throw home or an error.  It often leads to "hometown scoring" if a home player's stats could be helped (or harmed) a certain way.  The difference between hits/errors, wild pitches/passed balls, hit values, RBIs, sacrifices, et al. are all subjected to the judgement and fairness of the official scorer supplied by the home team.  

And don't even get me started on Earned Runs vs. Unearned Runs allowed.

To bring it back to hockey, maybe someone can comment on what besides awarding of goals, assists and goaltender wins the official scorer in hockey has the judgement on.

[Greg Berge]

Hey now, this thread was never about hockey.

> And don't even get me started on Earned Runs vs. Unearned Runs allowed.

My understanding is the only scorer subjectivity involved in this case is whether to declare an outcome an error or not in the first place.  After that, the designation of a run as earned or unearned follows automatically from the rules.  Right?

[jtwcornell91]

There is more subjectivity involved than just the awarding of hits and errors, since the official scorer has to play a game of "what-if" to determine if the runs would have scored without the error.

Example: with two outs and the bases empty, Vesce hits a double and goes to third on an error when Higgins mis-handles the bounce off the centerfield wall.  Baby hits a single, scoring Vesce easily.  Paolini lines out to end the inning.  Now, is Vesce's run earned or not?  Without the error, Vesce would be on second, and the official scorer has to judge whether or not he would have scored from second on the single.

More complicated example: with one out and nobody on, Hornby hits a single.  Walsh tries to pick him off, firing the ball over O'Flaherty's head at first, and Hornby advances to second on the error.  Vesce grounds out to Reid at second, with Hornby advancing to third on the play.  Now, without the error, Hornby would have started the play on first, not second.  Would Reid have thrown out Hornby at second rather than Vesce at first?  Would Clarkson have turned the double-play to end the inning?  (I know you can't assume a double play when awarding errors; I don't know if it's allowed in the Earned Run make-believe.)  In principle, you could have to imagine what would have happened next with Hornby on second, or Vesce on first, or perhaps even say the inning would have been over.

So there can be a lot of judgement calls for the official scorer in awarding earned runs.

[jtwcornell91]

Rich Hovorka '96 wrote:

To bring it back to hockey, maybe someone can comment on what besides awarding of goals, assists and goaltender wins the official scorer in hockey has the judgement on.

I believe in some places the official scorer counts shots.  Even when it's done by the goal judges or someone else, it's the official scorer who enters the number on the scoresheet, so it could be considered a delegation of authority.

I basically had no judgement calls at Utah; the goal scorers were given to me by the referees, who typically asked the players.  Actually, I thought the referees were responsible for determining which player(s) got credit for a goal.

And in fact, looking at http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2002/2002_ice_hockey_rules.pdf that appears to be the case.  See Part I, Rule 5, Section 3, Clause e, which lists among the referee's duties:

Announce to the official scorer or penalty timekeeper all goals and assists legally scored, as well as penalties, and for what infractions such penalties are assessed. However, conferences and tournament directors may determine an alternate policy for awarding assists.

[RichS]

It's my understanding that a DP can NEVER be assumed, so in this case it's simpler.

Oh, and John...if it were up to me, I would not have either Walshiw on the mound or Kevin O' at first...but that's just this fan's "judgement".  :-D

[Greg Berge]

RichS is right.  Jesus F***ing Christ, did I just say that?!

BTW, I've heard announcers say "the official scorer is not permitted to assume a DP" almost as much as I've heard them say "these kids today just don't respect the fund'mentals." :-D

I came across a great diatribe about "these kids today just don't respect the fund'mentals" about a year ago in a Spalding Guide from around 1915[/b][/i]

[RichS]

Did I just read that Greg?  Wow! :-D   Try it again sometime, eh? ;-)

[jtwcornell91]

Well, I figured goalie->pitcher in the hockey-to-baseball isomorphism.  ("Now here's how that play would have sounded if we'd been playing baseball instead of football...")  I was going to use Boucher, but couldn't come up with enough familiar Dartmouth players.  Should have done it with UVM circa 1996 and Tim Thomas on the mound.  (I can just imagine Steve Wilson taking out Martin St. Louis at second to break up a double-play, or Oatesie taking one for the team.)

[KeithK]

Having just come back from a trip where I saw (and scored) six baseball games in five days, this has been kind of a fun thread.