OT: Baseball scoring

[RichS]

Well, having been a goalie, er..."sieve", myself, I see goalies as more of the catcher type.  :-D   My response was taking that as well as the personalities of the Tech players you mentioned in mind.

I do like the analogy though...I thought you might think of Harvard guys before anyone else though...;-)

[nshapiro]

  By the way, why was 6 afraid of 7?),


This is the kind of groaner my 9 year old comes home with...
and the answer is....

because 7 8 9  (say it out loud)


And since this is a baseball scorekeeping thread, I am wondering how to score a play I saw this year:

Runner on third, one out.

Batter swings at pitch in dirt, strike 3....throw to first for putout, Runner from third scores.  Is this a stolen base? Is there an rbi?

[ugarte]

It's not a groaner - it's a classic.  

More recent number humor: What did 0 say to 8?

[Keith K]

[Q]
Runner on third, one out.

Batter swings at pitch in dirt, strike 3....throw to first for putout, Runner from third scores. Is this a stolen base? Is there an rbi?
[/Q]

If the runner were going on the pitch then he would get an SB (obviously).  Likewise, if the runner takes off when the catcher throws to first - delayed steal.  But if the runner takes off for home when he sees the pitch in the dirt it probably would go down as a wild pitch advancing the runner.

In any case, there is no RBI.

[Greg Berge]

> Likewise, if the runner takes off when the catcher throws to first - delayed steal.

Hmm.  I think I'd call that advancing on an FC.  Maybe.

Even if the runner scores before the throw to first is completed, it is a force out and the run doesn't count, correct?

Has anyone *ever* seen a fielder use the IF fly rule to fake out a baserunner and get him out?  Has anyone ever even seen an infielder try this?

Switching sports.  Football.  Has anyone ever seen a ball carrier, having outrun all the opponents by a large margin, stop on the 1 yard line and wait for the opponents to run all the way to him before stepping the extra yard, just to waste time?  The obvious case would be a go-ahead TD with a handful of seconds to play in the game, to avoid having to kick back to the other team.  The only reason I can think of not to do it is the risk of blowing the TD, but if you had say a handful of trailing blockers who yelled ahead that you were waaaaaaay clear, then why not?

[tml5]

>If the runner were going on the pitch then he would get an SB (obviously).

Is that true?  Are you sure it can't be fielder indifference?  Say the pitch is in the dirt but the catcher blocks it, and bobbles it for long enough that the hitter gets out of the box without getting tagged.  The catcher might have a play at the plate.  Now, why the catcher would choose to throw to first in this situation I don't know, but there you have it.  Maybe if it's 10-0 in the ninth or something. . .

>Has anyone *ever* seen a fielder use the IF fly rule to fake out a baserunner and get him out? Has anyone ever even seen an infielder try this?

Well, yes and no.  The infield fly rule is designed to prevent an infielder from deliberately dropping a fly ball in order to turn a double play.  I have never seen a fielder do this, because once the infield fly rule goes into effect the batter is out, and it is no longer possible to get the force at the next base.  I have seen baserunners screw up and get thrown out, and I have seen infielders deliberately drop the ball to bait the baserunner into an ill-advised attempt to advance to the next base.  Admittedly, only in meaningless rec league games, but I've seen it.  

I have since forgotten the exact wording of the rule, but I think it does leave some situations in which dropping a fly ball *can* result in a trick double play.  If that's what you're getting at, then no, I've never seen a fielder take advantage of that.

[DeltaOne81]

Tom,

If my memory serves, I think if it's a hard play, like a little infield bloop or short outfield, then infield fly won't be called, so if the fielder is really good, he could not quite get to it (on purpose or not) and try for the double play. Chances are he wouldn't make it. There's even a good chance that on a hard little play that that, everyone would be safe, so best to go for the catch if at all possible.

Oh, and Greg, I've never seen it, but I'm sure someone saw the play that caused the infield fly rule to be made... but chances are they're not on this earth anymore, nor are the people involved .

-Fred

[jtwcornell91]

The infield fly rule also doesn't apply if first but not second base is occupied.  However, if the infielder intentionally drops the ball to get the double play, the batter is out and the ball is dead.  The difference between this and the infield fly rule is that the fielder has to touch the ball and the umpire has to rule it was intentional.  There was a play which took place in one of the Dodgers-Yankees World Series in the late 1970s where, with one out, a runner on third, and Reggie Jackson on first, Davey Lopes dropped a pretty easy line drive, threw to second to force Jackson and start what should have been an inning-ending double play.  But Reggie had stopped in no man's land and the throw ricocheted off his hip into right field, scoring the run.  On the replay you could pretty clearly stick his hip out, but the umpire missed both the interference and the intentional dropping of the ball, which led to the best of the three possible outcomes from a Yankee perspective.

I did once make a double play on an infield fly, in an IM softball game in Utah.  The team we were playing was short-handed and had an automatic out in their order.  So with one out and a couple of runners on, the runners took off on a popup to short, figuring there were effectively two outs.  But I caught the ball and stepped on second, and had to explain to the umpire between innings that thanks to the inning-ending double play, the automatic out was leading off the next inning.

[jtwcornell91]

Okay, I think I have found the rules that explain this, thanks to the official major league rulebook online at http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_official_scorer.jsp

Runner from third is running on the pitch: Rule 10.08(a)
[Q]
When a runner starts for the next base before the pitcher delivers the ball and the pitch results in what ordinarily is scored a wild pitch or passed ball, credit the runner with a stolen base and do not charge the misplay. EXCEPTION: If, as a result of the misplay, the stealing runner advances an extra base, or another runner also advances, score the wild pitch or passed ball as well as the stolen base.
[/Q]
Although it looks like it's up to the scorer to decide whether the runner scored because the pitch was not cleanly handled or because the catcher threw to first, as described below.

Runner takes off when the catcher throws to first: Rule 10.14(f)(2)(ii)
[Q]
When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter runner at first base, or tags out the batter runner, but another runner or runners advance, score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners as having been made on the play.
[/Q]
Note that if any runner is thrown out on a double or triple steal, no one gets credit for a stolen base.  Presumably this includes a delayed double steal, although I've rarely seen the defense throw the runner out at second anyway; they typically cut the throw off and throw home.

I can think of situations where the catcher would be unable to make the play at home but could still throw out the batter at first, like if the ball goes through his five-hole and rolls a little way, and by the time he gets to it, he has time to throw to first but not to run back to home.  That should be a stolen base if the runner was going on the pitch and a wild pitch if not.

[tml5]

Thanks JTW.  That was the exception that I was thinking of.

I knew about the "hard play" exception, but I really can't see anyone turning the double play successfully *and* being obvious about intentionally booting the ball.  Still, it's worth noting.

[Greg Berge]

I was thinking of a far simpler case.  Bases loaded, one out.  High pop on the infield and the ump signals the automatic out.  The shortstop circles under it, then (discretely) muffs the catch, hoping that one of the runners will forget the IF fly, think he's forced, and try to advance. My reading of the rules above is that indeed, unless the ump calls the SS on the muff as intentional, then this would create the fake out DP.

OK, how about a totally different scenario for a different rule?  With one out, runners on second and third, the batter flies out to deep right.  Both runners tag and advance.  Before the next pitch, the pitcher throws to second, where the ump declares the baserunner left too soon and is out.

Does the run count under all, some or no circumstances?

[jtwcornell91]

Greg wrote:

I was thinking of a far simpler case.  Bases loaded, one out.  High pop on the infield and the ump signals the automatic out.  The shortstop circles under it, then (discretely) muffs the catch, hoping that one of the runners will forget the IF fly, think he's forced, and try to advance. My reading of the rules above is that indeed, unless the ump calls the SS on the muff as intentional, then this would create the fake out DP.

Given the wording of rule 6.05(l), which says that the batter is out when
[Q]
An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive, with first, first and second, first and third, or first, second and third base occupied before two are out. The ball is dead and runner or runners shall return to their original base or bases; APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is not out if the infielder permits the ball to drop untouched to the ground, except when the Infield Fly rule applies.
[/Q]
It seems that the intentional dropping rule also applies in IF situations.  However, (1) since an infield fly has to be called by the umpire (tby yelling "Infield fly", usually followed by "batter is out!" for good measure), it's difficult to see how the runners would fail to notice that and (2) the infield fly rule (which is hidded in chapter 2.00, "definition of terms") explicitly says that
[Q]
If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05 (L). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
[/Q]
So presumably, with runners on at least first and second and less than two outs (when the infield fly rule is in effect) the intentional dropping rule only comes into play if the umpire doesn't call an infield fly (e.g., on a line drive).

OK, how about a totally different scenario for a different rule?  With one out, runners on second and third, the batter flies out to deep right.  Both runners tag and advance.  Before the next pitch, the pitcher throws to second, where the ump declares the baserunner left too soon and is out.

Does the run count under all, some or no circumstances?

I think the run counts, although that's implicit rather than explicit in the rules.  See rule 7.12:
[Q]
Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.
[/Q]
A runner leaving early is an appeal play rather than a force play, so I don't think it affects the preceding runner.  But if on the play you describe, the fly ball is so deep that the runner from second rounds third, heads for home, and is safe at the plate, but the runner from third has left early and is called out on appeal, neither run scores (because the preceding runner was the third out).  Even more fun, if the runner from second is thrown out at the plate in the play described above, seeming ending the inning with one run having scored, the fielding team still has the opportunity to prevent the run by throwing to third and appealing that the precedind runner left early; see rule 7.10:
[Q]
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent "fourth out." If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage.
[/Q]

[Keith K]

In the infield fly situation there really can't be any issue with intentionally muffing the play because the fielder does not need to make the catch.  The batter is already out and actually catching the ball is irrelevant.  (I managed to pull this off a few months ago, intentionally letting an IF drop at third and then tagging the confused runner coming from second for an easy, inning-ending duoble play.  We still got mercy ruled though...)

[Greg Berge]

> I managed to pull this off a few months ago, intentionally letting an IF drop at third and then tagging the confused runner coming from second for an easy, inning-ending duoble play.

This was sort of case I was talking about.  And considering there are MLB players who chrage the mound on an HBP in a perfect game, I think there are players that could be fooled by *anything*.

[tml5]

IIRC, an HBP is not scored as a walk.  So, is a perfect game still a perfect game if there's an HBP?  What is the exact requirement - is it no walks, no hits, or is it all 27 batters retired in order?  I thought it was the latter, which leaves the question - what do you call a no hitter with no walks and an HBP?  Just a no-hitter?  Can it be a no-hitter if you hit someone?   ::nut::