Ben Robertson transfer

[Give My Regards]

I was actually talking about this recently with someone. New York also qualifies, but so does every state with an island, which is less exciting.

How about "non-contiguous states that look like a mitten"?

[stereax]

I was actually talking about this recently with someone. New York also qualifies, but so does every state with an island, which is less exciting.

How about "non-contiguous states that look like a mitten"?

live look at robertson:

[adamw]

To think NIL is not involved in college hockey is really off base. Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently. It would be pretty obvious Robertson got something, plus a full ride. Who knows his family's financial situation. No one here should judge - and no one here should assume anything negative about Cornell because of it.  I personally think teams like Cornell will generally be fine from this - because if you go to an Ivy, you know the financial thing going in.  But if one kid/one family is enticed by that - then so be it.  Maybe there are other family connections, or something, to Michigan too. I believe if the goaltending situation settles, Cornell will be near the top of the ECAC again, as usual. Stellar recruiting classes coming up.  Hopefully they can dip into the CHL pipeline as well.

Fegaras, Stanley, Veilleux, Fisher has the makings of a really good D, even without Robertson.

[BearLover]

To think NIL is not involved in college hockey is really off base. Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently. It would be pretty obvious Robertson got something, plus a full ride.

The notion that $100,000 payments are remotely commonplace directly contradicts this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/08/31/business/nil-money-ncaa.html

The chart at the end says annual NIL earnings for men's hockey players is $3,518 among the "top 50 players at their position."

Anecdotally, we have high draft picks like William Whitelaw transferring from  Michigan to Western Michigan, which offers no NIL. We have articles like this saying BU, which recruits better than any school in the country, does not have NIL: https://hockey.dailyfreepress.com/2024/09/27/joe-pereira-bu-hockeys-not-so-secret-weapon/. Why would Boisvert transfer somewhere with almost no NIL if he could get $100K at Minnesota? There are top players from Big 10 schools bolting for AHL deals that pay $75K or less.

Outside of some specific cases like Snuggerud returning to Minnesota for his junior season, player movement seems largely consistent with this NYT study. If NIL matters in college hockey, the effect seems small. I have yet to see, anywhere on the internet, a single documented example of an NCAA player receiving high NIL. Can somebody point me to one?

[abmarks]

To think NIL is not involved in college hockey is really off base. Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently. It would be pretty obvious Robertson got something, plus a full ride.

The notion that $100,000 payments are remotely commonplace directly contradicts this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/08/31/business/nil-money-ncaa.html

The chart at the end says annual NIL earnings for men's hockey players is $3,518 among the "top 50 players at their position."

Anecdotally, we have high draft picks like William Whitelaw transferring from  Michigan to Western Michigan, which offers no NIL. We have articles like this saying BU, which recruits better than any school in the country, does not have NIL: https://hockey.dailyfreepress.com/2024/09/27/joe-pereira-bu-hockeys-not-so-secret-weapon/. Why would Boisvert transfer somewhere with almost no NIL if he could get $100K at Minnesota? There are top players from Big 10 schools bolting for AHL deals that pay $75K or less.

Outside of some specific cases like Snuggerud returning to Minnesota for his junior season, player movement seems largely consistent with this NYT study. If NIL matters in college hockey, the effect seems small. I have yet to see, anywhere on the internet, a single documented example of an NCAA player receiving high NIL. Can somebody point me to one?

I can't believe you are once again arguing with a hockey journalist about who is better informed about reputable sources.  

Those articles are from August and September of last year, and the world is already much different the closer we get to the House settlement being finalized.  And you're citing one vague line from a random blog that happens to have the word NIL in it - that's not a good data point.

But let's take the NYTimes article.  It's well sourced and has actual data.  Except you read neither Adam's post nor the article closely.

Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently

-he said some BIG schools. He didn't say it was commonplace or that they were tossing it at the whole roster - and he clearly notes that it's the current state of play.  


You also didn't read the article from the NYT closely enough.  You missed two critical details in the article about the datase.


1. "There is no universal requirement for athletes to disclose how much they are being paid. Less than a third of the money that student athletes are making is publicly known, according to Opendorse."   (This makes it likely that the numbers reported are lower than the reality)

2. The fine print beneath the data tables is kinda important.  Looking at the searchable table by sport at the end of the article, the fine print says

Source: Opendorse. Data is based on N.I.L. transactions disclosed through or processed by Opendorse between July 1, 2021, and June 30, 2024.. Note: To be included in the calculations, players' expected annual earnings must rank in at least the top 50 at their position. The Track/Cross Country category includes athletes in track and field.

So that $3,518 number you are quoting is trailing far behind current times; there definitely wasn't much NIL getting paid in any sport in 2021, and NIL spend seems to be increasing exponentially in the last couple years. And that's additive to the prior note about only having 1/3 the data.  So it stands to argue that the numbers they are reporting are going to be significantly lower than the current reality.

You chose an out of date, partial dataset that has no relation to either reality or what Adam said. And because I 've seen you make this argument before, I'll preempt it: things are not definitionally untrue just because they haven't been published by someone yet. There are plenty of facts out there that are known to the few or the many but don't get published for a variety of reasons.

Now if only you were a man of your word and were actually bearlover out like you said you were, what, 3x already?

[VIEWfromK]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

[Dafatone]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

Also, important to remember that you can make a career out of professional hockey without being in the NHL.

[The Rancor]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

Also, important to remember that you can make a career out of professional hockey without being in the NHL.

The chance of having an NHL career is practically nill for almost all hockey players, TBF.

[upprdeck]

If someone gives you $100K thats great.  but hardly life altering.
Once you take out the agents cut of 10-20% so 80k
Then income tax of 20k and state tax of whatever say 5k

So you net about 50K

Also a good chance its not 100K, what if its half

50k - 10K - 10k - 3k.  so he nets like 25K.

The full ride thing is for real though if thats a perk

[abmarks]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell, yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

Also, important to remember that you can make a career out of professional hockey without being in the NHL.

The chance of having an NHL career is practically nill for almost all hockey players, TBF.

So bearlover says he's got basically zero chance of an NHL career. That's quite possible, but at the same time, I wonder how many on this board would have thought he could crack the Michigan lineup if we took a poll three weeks ago?  I'm betting 30% or fewer.  Yet Michigan clearly sees something in him.

EDIT: Question to all: Malinski is holding down a regular NHL spot these days. How many of us thought he'd get there after his freshman year - and compare/contrast memories of Malinski's frosh year vs. Robertson's.   They had similar stats and are listed as about the same size. Sam listed that year @ 5'11 190, 21yo at season's end. Ben listed that year at 5'11 181 and was 19 at season's end


Think back to his freshman year - We were all marveling at his passing abilities all the time - wondering where he even saw the lanes from. This year though was definitely worse, and who knows why.  Maybe he was unhappy here for some reason- be it academic, financial, athletic or unknown injuries. Maybe Casey had planned to use him next year in a different fashion than Ben liked. Or here's another reasonable angle: he's an offensive defenseman - and maybe he feels his development was held back here because of our style.   And in order to develop HIS game that suits him best, he needed to go somewhere that plays a different kind of game.,  That's Michigan. They play a far more Uptempo style and he'll be playing with much higher end talent, plus getting in more games a year against higher caliber opposition.  

It's not a guarantee of getting to the show, but it sounds like a very reasonable path to take if you believe that your best shot is to maximize your game in that mold.  We haven't had a lot of guys over the years that could've played for Michigan, apart from many of our goaltenders I guess.  My point being that hockey-wise, I'm never going to knock a cornell player that is offered the chance to play for Michigan instead and takes it (even if there is no monetary difference at all).  Hockey-wise it's rarified air.  I say that as one of the many on here who went CU undergrad and Michigan grad and spent a few years at Yost (there are at least 5 of us off the top of my head).  I wouldn't expect anyone to disagree who had only seen a bunch of Michigan games on TV, but when you see the talent difference in person over 15+ games a year it's just not arguable.

[Trotsky]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

Also, important to remember that you can make a career out of professional hockey without being in the NHL.

The chance of having an NHL career is practically nill for almost all hockey players, TBF.

Yes.  Better comparison is to expand the numerator to any professional league, and reduce the denominator to D1.  

And as for "career," maybe rescope to "just enough money to live on while figuring out what soul-devouring 9-to-5 wage slavery you want to do like the rest of us who can't even skate backwards."

[adamw]

To think NIL is not involved in college hockey is really off base. Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently. It would be pretty obvious Robertson got something, plus a full ride.

The notion that $100,000 payments are remotely commonplace directly contradicts this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/08/31/business/nil-money-ncaa.html

The chart at the end says annual NIL earnings for men's hockey players is $3,518 among the "top 50 players at their position."

Anecdotally, we have high draft picks like William Whitelaw transferring from  Michigan to Western Michigan, which offers no NIL. We have articles like this saying BU, which recruits better than any school in the country, does not have NIL: https://hockey.dailyfreepress.com/2024/09/27/joe-pereira-bu-hockeys-not-so-secret-weapon/. Why would Boisvert transfer somewhere with almost no NIL if he could get $100K at Minnesota? There are top players from Big 10 schools bolting for AHL deals that pay $75K or less.

Outside of some specific cases like Snuggerud returning to Minnesota for his junior season, player movement seems largely consistent with this NYT study. If NIL matters in college hockey, the effect seems small. I have yet to see, anywhere on the internet, a single documented example of an NCAA player receiving high NIL. Can somebody point me to one?

Look dude -- the idea that Western isn't giving NIL is also laughable. I know for a fact numerous players on their team that are. Someone floated out there that thing about Western not giving NIL, and a couple of us just literally laughed at it.

What's your definition of "commonplace"? You sure love to twist words into something that sounds more extreme than was actually said, eh?

As for why Whitelaw would transfer? Again, no one said every B10 player was getting 100,000 - never said anything remotely close to that. He's been underwhelming at Michigan, and he's going to a place where forwards become the best version of themselves. Not a shocker there. He'll probably get some NIL, but I'm sure it wasn't his main factor or relevant (or contradictory) to this discussion. Isaac Howard will probably get between 50 and 100k to return to Michigan State - but that wasn't the main factor in his decision. It was his inability to burn a year on his ELC that was the main factor.  A lot goes into these things.

Listen, I don't want to be an ass here and pull rank. I come here because I love Cornell hockey, despite the fact that I run a theoretically impartial web site. But I talk to a lot of people, all the time, especially at the Frozen Four. That includes agents, two of which I spoke to yesterday.  If I say something like this here, I assure you, I know what I'm talking about. And I can assure you I know more than 99% of the college hockey articles out there.  If it's just my opinion or guess, I'll make that clear too.  My comment about Robertson WAS speculation - but reasonably informed speculation based on the prevailing atmosphere, which is that players of HIS ILK - ARE getting NIL. I don't know that for a fact with Robertson - but I said it appears highly likely.

I'm giving this information here to be helpful - not to sound like a big shot.  If you don't want to believe me, so be it.

[BearLover]

To think NIL is not involved in college hockey is really off base. Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently. It would be pretty obvious Robertson got something, plus a full ride.

The notion that $100,000 payments are remotely commonplace directly contradicts this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/08/31/business/nil-money-ncaa.html

The chart at the end says annual NIL earnings for men's hockey players is $3,518 among the "top 50 players at their position."

Anecdotally, we have high draft picks like William Whitelaw transferring from  Michigan to Western Michigan, which offers no NIL. We have articles like this saying BU, which recruits better than any school in the country, does not have NIL: https://hockey.dailyfreepress.com/2024/09/27/joe-pereira-bu-hockeys-not-so-secret-weapon/. Why would Boisvert transfer somewhere with almost no NIL if he could get $100K at Minnesota? There are top players from Big 10 schools bolting for AHL deals that pay $75K or less.

Outside of some specific cases like Snuggerud returning to Minnesota for his junior season, player movement seems largely consistent with this NYT study. If NIL matters in college hockey, the effect seems small. I have yet to see, anywhere on the internet, a single documented example of an NCAA player receiving high NIL. Can somebody point me to one?

I can't believe you are once again arguing with a hockey journalist about who is better informed about reputable sources.  

Those articles are from August and September of last year, and the world is already much different the closer we get to the House settlement being finalized.  And you're citing one vague line from a random blog that happens to have the word NIL in it - that's not a good data point.

But let's take the NYTimes article.  It's well sourced and has actual data.  Except you read neither Adam's post nor the article closely.

Some Big Ten schools are floating upwards of $100,000/year at players - currently

-he said some BIG schools. He didn't say it was commonplace or that they were tossing it at the whole roster - and he clearly notes that it's the current state of play.  


You also didn't read the article from the NYT closely enough.  You missed two critical details in the article about the datase.


1. "There is no universal requirement for athletes to disclose how much they are being paid. Less than a third of the money that student athletes are making is publicly known, according to Opendorse."   (This makes it likely that the numbers reported are lower than the reality)

2. The fine print beneath the data tables is kinda important.  Looking at the searchable table by sport at the end of the article, the fine print says

Source: Opendorse. Data is based on N.I.L. transactions disclosed through or processed by Opendorse between July 1, 2021, and June 30, 2024.. Note: To be included in the calculations, players' expected annual earnings must rank in at least the top 50 at their position. The Track/Cross Country category includes athletes in track and field.

So that $3,518 number you are quoting is trailing far behind current times; there definitely wasn't much NIL getting paid in any sport in 2021, and NIL spend seems to be increasing exponentially in the last couple years. And that's additive to the prior note about only having 1/3 the data.  So it stands to argue that the numbers they are reporting are going to be significantly lower than the current reality.

You chose an out of date, partial dataset that has no relation to either reality or what Adam said. And because I 've seen you make this argument before, I'll preempt it: things are not definitionally untrue just because they haven't been published by someone yet. There are plenty of facts out there that are known to the few or the many but don't get published for a variety of reasons.

Now if only you were a man of your word and were actually bearlover out like you said you were, what, 3x already?

"Adam said some B1G schools, not all schools"
If some B1G schools were paying 100K, that would be reflected in the data. It is mathematically impossible for the average to be as low as 3K if multiple players were making 100K.

"The dataset contains only 1/3 of players (making it likely the numbers reported are lower than reality)"
Uhh, couldn't it just as easily be higher than reality?

"The dataset is outdated"
Yes, and I've mentioned this other times when I've referenced this article. But the FB and BB numbers are largely in line with what's been reported recently.

"NIL seems to be increasing exponentially"
Nope. Not exponentially. And there's absolutely no evidence this is the case in hockey or other non-revenue sports.

"The data is lacking"
Yes, it is lacking. I've been clear about this when I've referred to this article in the past. And yet, it is the ONLY data we have on this issue. We have NOTHING else to go by, other than rumors and anecdotes.

"I can't believe you are once again arguing with a hockey journalist"
Appeal to authority fallacy. Which is funny, coming from you, because I'm sure you'd be bitching and moaning about me doing the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot.

Will deal with more object-level disagreements in my reply to Adam when I have a moment.

[BearLover]

Robertson has almost no chance of an NHL career.

I wasn't even considering the possibility that Jacob MacDonald or Joakim Ryan would play in the NHL based on their time at Cornell, yet both have played in the league.  Maybe you wouldn't call it a career but since I don't think Cornell turns out finished products it's kind of hard to really know

Also, important to remember that you can make a career out of professional hockey without being in the NHL.

The chance of having an NHL career is practically nill for almost all hockey players, TBF.

So bearlover says he's got basically zero chance of an NHL career. That's quite possible, but at the same time, I wonder how many on this board would have thought he could crack the Michigan lineup if we took a poll three weeks ago?  I'm betting 30% or fewer.  Yet Michigan clearly sees something in him.

I'm sorry, but this is a grossly misinformed post. You shouldn't be screaming at other posters about their hockey opinions if you are so out of touch.

Any person who actually follows college hockey knew, 3 weeks ago, 1 year ago, even 2 years ago, that Robertson would not only crack Michigan's lineup but instantly be one of their top defensemen.

[stereax]

Anyway. I'm happy Robertson is going somewhere where he'll likely have better opportunities to show off his abilities and make it to the big leagues, and I wish him the best. Just not at Lynah