Ben Robertson transfer

[andyw2100]

Obviously, the NHL is the dream of dreams, but hockey players want to play, and getting paid to do so is a rare thing.

Cue NIL discussion...

[billhoward]

Always a bit of yada-yada, space-filler posts and navel gazing this time of year as the season goes into playoff mode and we all want to say something just to be part of the discussion.

I felt bad that Ben Robertson transferred to Michigan but maybe he was thinking about what (he believed) is best for him and his future. And, wow, did Xavier Veilleux step up the Cornell defensive cadre.

I used to think it was silly for someone to go pro early because "why would anyone give up an Ivy education." But you can always come back and finish the degree. And it is their life.

[arugula]

I referred to ECHL as "glorified semi-pro".  Not meant as a shot at the skill level.  Those guys are great great players.  Look at some of those rosters.  Just meant that the pay is bad and the conditions worse.  Hence the player strike this year.  AHL is head and shoulders better.  Plus, even if the talent level were the same (it isn't) the conditions would make the AHL teams better. 

[arugula]

Always a bit of yada-yada, space-filler posts and navel gazing this time of year as the season goes into playoff mode and we all want to say something just to be part of the discussion.

I felt bad that Ben Robertson transferred to Michigan but maybe he was thinking about what (he believed) is best for him and his future. And, wow, did Xavier Veilleux step up the Cornell defensive cadre.

I used to think it was silly for someone to go pro early because "why would anyone give up an Ivy education." But you can always come back and finish the degree. And it is their life.

Yes.  Plus in Robertson's case, assuming he cares about school, he went to a great one.

[arugula]

Now that we've locked the NCAAs and met my bar for a good year, I will look back on the most shocking moment of last offseason, Ben Robertson ditching his friends, teammates, coaches, and school in favor of Michigan.

1. Robertson's departure was mitigated by the arrival of Veilleux, another offensively minded left-handed defenseman who is frankly just a better player.

2. Moreover, viewing the portal gains/losses in totality, I might argue that 3 years of Fisher + 3 years of Ashton is worth more than 2 years of Robertson. That is to say, we quite possibly came out ahead.

3. However, I believe this is the wrong framing. The goal with the portal is not merely to improve your team; it's to improve as much as, or more than, the teams we want to beat in late March and April. From that perspective, we did well by "Cornell standards" but not by "making the Frozen Four standards." Particularly since Robertson went to one of those teams we want to beat.

4. If Robertson's goal was to get an NHL contract, I think he has so far failed in his mission. With the caveat that I've watched 0 of his games this year, putting up 0 goals and 18 assists in 36 games for a stacked team which he leads in ice time and quarterbacks the first PP unit is...really not impressive. It's frankly worse than his freshman year at Cornell. Of course, the fact he's on the ice so much is itself a positive indicator, but half a point per game with 0 goals? Really? Unless (and probably even if) he's been playing otherworldly defense, no NHL career for him.

5. Cornell being good this year takes a lot of the sting off.

6. Still, all of this is beside the point: we'd be a better team this year if Robertson were still on it. Imagine the highly realistic world where Robertson and Bancroft return. We'd probably be looking at a 1-seed right now.

7. Overall, if I could press a button to undo everything that has happened since Cornell's 2024-25 season ended, I would not press it. I'm too content with where things stand. At this point, the most troubling part of all of this is...

8. I do wonder whether Robertson's departure set some kind of precedent or is some kind of harbinger of what's to come. Are we going to see our best players transfer out on a semi-regular basis? Or is this a one-off event? That's the key question at this point. It's a problem that has afflicted many mid-majors. Are we one of them?

Thought a lot about this.  If he and Bancroft stay, I would think not every newcomer arrives. Maybe no XV? Or Fisher? Or Ryan?  Highly speculative.  Would love to know why Ben left.  Dalton pretty clearly made a mistake. 

XV was 100% coming regardless.
Probably no Ashton if Robertson stays, as both are left handed defensemen.
Maybe no Ryan if Bancroft stays. Not sure though.

If those were indeed the outcomes, then can't say we're much worse off.

The "trades" worked out

[adamw]

For any of you saying the AHL or ECHL are 'semi-pro' hockey and not 'worth it' you simply do not know how good you have to be to even sit on the bench in these leagues. Ask anyone who has played any competitive hockey, they will tell you. Obviously, the NHL is the dream of dreams, but hockey players want to play, and getting paid to do so is a rare thing.

At this point, college hockey has risen to just about AHL level. The ECHL was never on par with college hockey as a whole. I've worked in the minors at that level. And most college players earn more money than ECHL players, if you factor the scholarship.  A lot earn more than AHL players at this point.

[The Rancor]

For any of you saying the AHL or ECHL are 'semi-pro' hockey and not 'worth it' you simply do not know how good you have to be to even sit on the bench in these leagues. Ask anyone who has played any competitive hockey, they will tell you. Obviously, the NHL is the dream of dreams, but hockey players want to play, and getting paid to do so is a rare thing.

At this point, college hockey has risen to just about AHL level. The ECHL was never on par with college hockey as a whole. I've worked in the minors at that level. And most college players earn more money than ECHL players, if you factor the scholarship.  A lot earn more than AHL players at this point.

I have to disagree on play level. The AHL, and many ECHL teams, would be All Star NCAA teams, or Junior hockey teams. Level of play is faster, and the hits are harder, and the fighting... but that is another issue. You're one of the most knowledgeable guys on this board, so you know what you're talking about, but it feels like an exaggeration AHL=NCAA D1. If so, why pull guys out of college just to have them develop in the minors? They'd all stay 4 years at no expense to the pro team, if that's the case.
On getting paid, that is definitely true for a select number of students, and yeah, the scholarship is not insignificant, as anyone here knows. What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

[adamw]

For any of you saying the AHL or ECHL are 'semi-pro' hockey and not 'worth it' you simply do not know how good you have to be to even sit on the bench in these leagues. Ask anyone who has played any competitive hockey, they will tell you. Obviously, the NHL is the dream of dreams, but hockey players want to play, and getting paid to do so is a rare thing.

At this point, college hockey has risen to just about AHL level. The ECHL was never on par with college hockey as a whole. I've worked in the minors at that level. And most college players earn more money than ECHL players, if you factor the scholarship.  A lot earn more than AHL players at this point.

I have to disagree on play level. The AHL, and many ECHL teams, would be All Star NCAA teams, or Junior hockey teams. Level of play is faster, and the hits are harder, and the fighting... but that is another issue. You're one of the most knowledgeable guys on this board, so you know what you're talking about, but it feels like an exaggeration AHL=NCAA D1. If so, why pull guys out of college just to have them develop in the minors? They'd all stay 4 years at no expense to the pro team, if that's the case.
On getting paid, that is definitely true for a select number of students, and yeah, the scholarship is not insignificant, as anyone here knows. What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

We can debate AHL - but there is no way ECHL is remotely close to college. If those players were NCAA all-stars, they are absolutely not in the ECHL. And that's been true for a long time - but especially now. Take a look at who the players are on those rosters. They were never close to being college hockey all-stars. NCAA All-America teams are going right to the NHL, or AHL.  They're not coming close to the ECHL.

Why pull players out to go pro to AHL?  Age old argument.

1. NHL teams feel it's better to have the players in their control.
2. NHL teams have bias against NCAA because of fewer games played (not so much the case anymore, as evidenced by NHL teams now sending their top MJ players to the NCAA instead of back to MJ)
3. It's driven by the player, who just feels like they can't wait to be a pro - perhaps with some misguided notion they will make the NHL Team. Can't tell you how many players over the years I've heard from that regretted this decision.

In other words, the reason they go is not usually because it's actually better.

Note that there are some cases, of course, where it's "time to go" and it is right. But just because it happens, does not automatically mean it's right.

Note also - I've always felt this way - but even moreso the case now, where the level of NCAA hockey, with all the first rounders and Major Junior players, has certainly gotten to the point of being on par with the AHL.

[The Rancor]

For any of you saying the AHL or ECHL are 'semi-pro' hockey and not 'worth it' you simply do not know how good you have to be to even sit on the bench in these leagues. Ask anyone who has played any competitive hockey, they will tell you. Obviously, the NHL is the dream of dreams, but hockey players want to play, and getting paid to do so is a rare thing.

3. It's driven by the player, who just feels like they can't wait to be a pro - perhaps with some misguided notion they will make the NHL Team. Can't tell you how many players over the years I've heard from that regretted this decision.

In other words, the reason they go is not usually because it's actually better.

Note that there are some cases, of course, where it's "time to go" and it is right. But just because it happens, does not automatically mean it's right.

back to my original comment, and point, is that these guys want to be Pro Hockey Players, no matter what. And, it isn't really (always) about pay- although that signing bonus probably feels pretty sweet.

[Trotsky]

Guys who are good enough to have consistently moved up the ladder Novice --> Atom --> Peewee --> Midget --> Juniors --> College see college as another rung.  As Cornell fans we are perpetually focused on what for good players is just another transitional step in their development. It would be weird from their POV if they plateaued too long here.  They've spent their lives playing well enough to get promoted up.

"4 years in college" is an academic perspective, to gain a credential.  Serious athletes have an entirely different use for college; the credential is irrelevant.  The Bruins don't turn you away from camp if you are short credits.  For that matter, while some colleges once had an educational mission they have now all been captured by rich assholes as tax rackets.  They exploit players to gather revenue.  Pro owners exploit colleges to avoid paying to develop and maintain an expensive minor league system like baseball has.  The media exploits everybody to jock sniff their way to profits.  The advertisers make it all go round by dishing out their brainwashing to we the Great Unwashed.  Just another totally not toxic way to organize a culture, guaranteed to foster feelings of deep fulfillment and spiritual satisfaction.

Whether or not it was a healthy idea to use college as an athletic development mechanism, we made that deci$ion many decades ago.  This is the inevitable consequence.

[BearLover]

What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

Any NIL, including a few dollars here and there from eg. jersey sales? Maybe 50%. Substantial NIL that rivals eg. an ECHL salary? Probably an extremely small percentage, less than 1%.

[stereax]

What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

Any NIL, including a few dollars here and there from eg. jersey sales? Maybe 50%. Substantial NIL that rivals eg. an ECHL salary? Probably an extremely small percentage, less than 1%.

You overestimate the ECHL's wages... which, when factored over the year, are pretty damn low. A fair amount of those guys take second jobs over the summer, etc.

We've heard of guys getting 50k and transferring schools because of it. Add scholarship, room, board, food. That's more than an ECHL salary, I can almost guarantee it.

So much so, that there are guys who are saying "if my choices are ECHL (with little prospect of moving up the ranks) or workforce, I'm going to the workforce". It's just not worth it for some to spend 3-5 years in the ECHL, making relatively little money with relatively little forward momentum, and then end up in the workforce anyway, just with a few extra surgeries.

[BearLover]

What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

Any NIL, including a few dollars here and there from eg. jersey sales? Maybe 50%. Substantial NIL that rivals eg. an ECHL salary? Probably an extremely small percentage, less than 1%.

You overestimate the ECHL's wages... which, when factored over the year, are pretty damn low. A fair amount of those guys take second jobs over the summer, etc.

We've heard of guys getting 50k and transferring schools because of it. Add scholarship, room, board, food. That's more than an ECHL salary, I can almost guarantee it.

So much so, that there are guys who are saying "if my choices are ECHL (with little prospect of moving up the ranks) or workforce, I'm going to the workforce".

I was assuming the average ECHL wage is around 50K, which would equate to what the very best players in the country are rumored to be getting offered to transfer.

[stereax]

What percentage of players, overall are getting direct NIL? 50% or more?

Any NIL, including a few dollars here and there from eg. jersey sales? Maybe 50%. Substantial NIL that rivals eg. an ECHL salary? Probably an extremely small percentage, less than 1%.

You overestimate the ECHL's wages... which, when factored over the year, are pretty damn low. A fair amount of those guys take second jobs over the summer, etc.

We've heard of guys getting 50k and transferring schools because of it. Add scholarship, room, board, food. That's more than an ECHL salary, I can almost guarantee it.

So much so, that there are guys who are saying "if my choices are ECHL (with little prospect of moving up the ranks) or workforce, I'm going to the workforce".

I was assuming the average ECHL wage is around 50K, which would equate to what the very best players in the country are rumored to be getting offered to transfer.

Overview of ECHL Salaries
How much do ECHL players make? The salary of ECHL players varies widely based on factors like experience, position, and team. According to the ECHL minimum salary for the 2021-2022 season, a rookie can expect to earn $555 per week. Veterans with three or more years of professional experience can earn up to $925 per week.

But what about the average ECHL salary? The average ECHL player earns around $600 per week. However, this number can vary widely based on factors like performance, position, and team. Some players may earn much more than the league average, while others may earn less.

The average salary for an ECHL player is around $600 per week, but this can vary based on a number of factors such as the player's experience, skill level, and position on the team. In some cases, players can make over $1,000 per week, while others may make less than $400 per week.

It's also important to note that ECHL players are typically only paid during the regular season, which lasts for about six months. During the off-season, many players will look for other work or play in other leagues to supplement their income.

Another thing to keep in mind is that ECHL players are responsible for their own travel and living expenses, which can add up quickly. While some teams provide housing or help players find affordable options, others do not, leaving players to foot the bill for their own accommodations.

Sourcing from this, which seems to be generally accurate as far as I've done research and understand it.

550 x 26 weeks = 55 x 10 x 2 x 13 = 1100 x 13 = 14300.

925 x 26 = 925 x 2 x 13 = 1850 x 13 = 24050.

Yeah. You're off...

[billhoward]

Without the ECHL and AHL, we wouldn't have had Slapshot.