Wrestling [2017-18]

[George64]

With ~20 seconds left, Meredith took another shot and Yianni was able to counter and not only take Meredith down but expose his back to the mat for a 2 count and two back points to go up 7-4, then hold on for the final 10 seconds for the win. Dramatic and unbelievable. I can't believe we have three more years of this guy.

What a poised young man - in the match, in the post-match interview, and in the press conference.

[billhoward]

CONGRATULATIONS TO NATIONAL CHAMPION,TRUE FRESHMAN YIANNI DIAKOMIHALIS! OH MY GOD I'M FLYING!

Yeah, congratulations, and Ugarte you've in your joy fallen to the NCAA BS term "true freshman." That's a sort of retronym, like corded drill or (thank you Wm Safire) English-language radio. There's "freshman" and "redshirt freshman."

This is awesome and somewhat unexpected.

[Al DeFlorio]

Casper Star-Tribune on the 141 final:

http://trib.com/sports/college/wyoming/wyoming-s-bryce-meredith-loses-national-championship-match/article_cc5c7b68-1aa0-543b-b4a6-9eac83c856db.html

[ugarte]

CONGRATULATIONS TO NATIONAL CHAMPION,TRUE FRESHMAN YIANNI DIAKOMIHALIS! OH MY GOD I'M FLYING!

Yeah, congratulations, and Ugarte you've in your joy fallen to the NCAA BS term "true freshman." That's a sort of retronym, like corded drill or (thank you Wm Safire) English-language radio. There's "freshman" and "redshirt freshman."

This is awesome and somewhat unexpected.

It is a retronym, but it's necessary. Why would you have anything against retronyms? Once redshirts become ubiquitous - and they certainly are in wrestling - the retronym becomes necessary to avoid ambiguity. Hell, he's even a true freshman by Ivy standards. Darmstadt and Dean, for example, both took "greyshirt" years at Finger Lakes CC for a year and weren't officially affiliated with the program. Redshirts at non-Ivy schools are enrolled as students and practice with the team but don't burn eligibility by competing for the school. This time last year, Yianni was in high school.

[Al DeFlorio]

CONGRATULATIONS TO NATIONAL CHAMPION,TRUE FRESHMAN YIANNI DIAKOMIHALIS! OH MY GOD I'M FLYING!

Yeah, congratulations, and Ugarte you've in your joy fallen to the NCAA BS term "true freshman." That's a sort of retronym, like corded drill or (thank you Wm Safire) English-language radio. There's "freshman" and "redshirt freshman."

This is awesome and somewhat unexpected.

This time last year, Yianni was in high school.

And not able to wrestle recovering from a broken elbow..

[upprdeck]

Golic mentioned Yianni on radio this morning

[George64]

It is a retronym, but it's necessary. Why would you have anything against retronyms? Once redshirts become ubiquitous - and they certainly are in wrestling - the retronym becomes necessary to avoid ambiguity. Hell, he's even a true freshman by Ivy standards. Darmstadt and Dean, for example, both took "greyshirt" years at Finger Lakes CC for a year and weren't officially affiliated with the program. Redshirts at non-Ivy schools are enrolled as students and practice with the team but don't burn eligibility by competing for the school. This time last year, Yianni was in high school.

I have to agree with Bill.  To me freshman always meant and still means a first-year student.  No additional qualifier is necessary.

Malia Obama took a gap year and is now just a Harvard freshman.  Many Ivy athletes prep for a year after high school to mature physically, hone their athletic skills, and/or improve their grades.  Rob Panell, Deerfield Academy, comes to mind.  As far as I know, no one made a distinction between Rob and other freshman lacrosse players.  Dick Bertrand played on the freshman hockey team after serving as a Toronto policeman.  Cornell welcomes military veterans into each freshman class.  "Freshman" and "true freshman" is an unnecessary academic distinction.  "Redshirt freshmen" may be academic sophomores, or not.

[ugarte]

It is a retronym, but it's necessary. Why would you have anything against retronyms? Once redshirts become ubiquitous - and they certainly are in wrestling - the retronym becomes necessary to avoid ambiguity. Hell, he's even a true freshman by Ivy standards. Darmstadt and Dean, for example, both took "greyshirt" years at Finger Lakes CC for a year and weren't officially affiliated with the program. Redshirts at non-Ivy schools are enrolled as students and practice with the team but don't burn eligibility by competing for the school. This time last year, Yianni was in high school.

I have to agree with Bill.  To me freshman always meant and still means a first-year student.  No additional qualifier is necessary.

Malia Obama took a gap year and is now just a Harvard freshman.  Many Ivy athletes prep for a year after high school to mature physically, hone their athletic skills, and/or improve their grades.  Rob Panell, Deerfield Academy, comes to mind.  As far as I know, no one made a distinction between Rob and other freshman lacrosse players.  Dick Bertrand played on the freshman hockey team after serving as a Toronto policeman.  Cornell welcomes military veterans into each freshman class.  "Freshman" and "true freshman" is an unnecessary academic distinction.  "Redshirt freshmen" may be academic sophomores, or not.

it isn't an academic distinction, it's a sports-specific competitive distinction. disagree all you want. you're wrong. the retronym provides necessary context in discussions about sports. "acoustic guitar" is a retronym but without it "guitar" is not a default, it's an ambiguity.

[Al DeFlorio]

It is a retronym, but it's necessary. Why would you have anything against retronyms? Once redshirts become ubiquitous - and they certainly are in wrestling - the retronym becomes necessary to avoid ambiguity. Hell, he's even a true freshman by Ivy standards. Darmstadt and Dean, for example, both took "greyshirt" years at Finger Lakes CC for a year and weren't officially affiliated with the program. Redshirts at non-Ivy schools are enrolled as students and practice with the team but don't burn eligibility by competing for the school. This time last year, Yianni was in high school.

I have to agree with Bill.  To me freshman always meant and still means a first-year student.  No additional qualifier is necessary.

Malia Obama took a gap year and is now just a Harvard freshman.  Many Ivy athletes prep for a year after high school to mature physically, hone their athletic skills, and/or improve their grades.  Rob Panell, Deerfield Academy, comes to mind.  As far as I know, no one made a distinction between Rob and other freshman lacrosse players.  Dick Bertrand played on the freshman hockey team after serving as a Toronto policeman.  Cornell welcomes military veterans into each freshman class.  "Freshman" and "true freshman" is an unnecessary academic distinction.  "Redshirt freshmen" may be academic sophomores, or not.

The term redshirt applies to a freshman who was enrolled at the college and was taking courses at the college for a year but was not participating in the varsity program in order to preserve eligibility.  Neither of your examples fits that situation.  Ugarte is correct in saying the qualifier "true" is necessary when discussing a freshman in a sport where redshirting is common (e.g., wrestling) to distinguish between a freshman who arrived on campus that year vs. one who had already spent a year working out with the team under the team's coaches during his "true" freshman year.

Pannell and Bertrand were "true" freshmen when they arrived on campus.  Freshmen did not play varsity sports in the Bertrand undergraduate era but rules changed so Pannell did...as a "true" freshman, regardless of his so-called postgraduate year at Deerfield.

[Trotsky]

They should adopt the high school convention of n letters in sport x.  Freshman, sophomore, junior, senior are where you are as a student.  They only relate to sports as a useful datum like height.  They aren't changed by your red shirt status no matter what the NC$$ thinks.

[George64]

Pannell and Bertrand were "true" freshmen when they arrived on campus.  Freshmen did not play varsity sports in the Bertrand undergraduate era but rules changed so Pannell did...as a "true" freshman, regardless of his so-called postgraduate year at Deerfield.

The point I tried to make, but unsuccessfully, was that "true" is unnecessary.  Malia, Pannell, Bertrand, military veterans, Dean and Darmstadt all became freshmen when they matriculated, just like Yianni who came to Cornell directly from high school. During your first academic year, you're a freshman, and no further qualifier is necessary.  I think commentators only need to distinguish "redshirt freshmen" from other freshman athletes, because they maybe (hopefully) no longer freshmen, but to each his own.  BTW, what do we call someone who was redshirted for a year, but graduates in four years and then uses his/her final year of eligibility as a graduate student?

[ugarte]

Pannell and Bertrand were "true" freshmen when they arrived on campus.  Freshmen did not play varsity sports in the Bertrand undergraduate era but rules changed so Pannell did...as a "true" freshman, regardless of his so-called postgraduate year at Deerfield.

The point I tried to make, but unsuccessfully, was that "true" is unnecessary.  Malia, Pannell, Bertrand, military veterans, Dean and Darmstadt all became freshmen when they matriculated, just like Yianni who came to Cornell directly from high school. During your first academic year, you're a freshman, and no further qualifier is necessary.  I think commentators only need to distinguish "redshirt freshmen" from other freshman athletes, because they maybe (hopefully) no longer freshmen, but to each his own.  BTW, what do we call someone who was redshirted for a year, but graduates in four years and then uses his/her final year of eligibility as a graduate student?

a "graduate student" also "not in the ivy league"

[George64]

BTW, what do we call someone who was redshirted for a year, but graduates in four years and then uses his/her final year of eligibility as a graduate student?

a "graduate student" also "not in the ivy league"

Okay, so why not call a "redshirt freshman" a sophomore?  The problem we have is conflating academic standing with athletic eligibility.

[Al DeFlorio]

BTW, what do we call someone who was redshirted for a year, but graduates in four years and then uses his/her final year of eligibility as a graduate student?

a "graduate student" also "not in the ivy league"

Okay, so why not call a "redshirt freshman" a sophomore?  The problem we have is conflating academic standing with athletic eligibility.

Because it's easier than saying "a sophomore academically but only now using his first year of varsity eligibility."

[George64]

BTW, what do we call someone who was redshirted for a year, but graduates in four years and then uses his/her final year of eligibility as a graduate student?

a "graduate student" also "not in the ivy league"

Okay, so why not call a "redshirt freshman" a sophomore?  The problem we have is conflating academic standing with athletic eligibility.

Because it's easier than saying "a sophomore academically but only now using his first year of varsity eligibility."

Touché