Wrestling [2017-18]

[upprdeck]

technically red-shirt is only a term for someone who skipped a year because of injury.. the fact the ncaa allows 5 to play 4 its used much more loosely now. with the ivy not allowing kids that 5th year if they graduate its even a more muddled term.

[Al DeFlorio]

technically red-shirt is only a term for someone who skipped a year because of injury.. the fact the ncaa allows 5 to play 4 its used much more loosely now. with the ivy not allowing kids that 5th year if they graduate its even a more muddled term.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=red-shirt%20freshman

[ugarte]

technically red-shirt is only a term for someone who skipped a year because of injury.. the fact the ncaa allows 5 to play 4 its used much more loosely now. with the ivy not allowing kids that 5th year if they graduate its even a more muddled term.

that's where the retronyn "medical redshirt" came from lol. the ivy (at least, cornell) solution is a year at Finger Lakes CC - wrestling people call it a greyshirt because they work with people who aren't affiliated with Cornell but also aren't NOT affiliated with Cornell if you know what I mean.

[Jim Hyla]

So, are all first year students to be called true freshmen, or only athletes?

I lean toward the group that says a freshman is first year and you use redshirt freshman as an athletic determination. I don't see why the "true" is needed. If redshirt is not added, then it's understood that it's the student's first year in college.

[Al DeFlorio]

So, are all first year students to be called true freshmen, or only athletes?

I lean toward the group that says a freshman is first year and you use redshirt freshman as an athletic determination. I don't see why the "true" is needed. If redshirt is not added, then it's understood that it's the student's first year in college.

That would be fine, Jim, in theory, if you can assure that everyone announcing and reporting on college sports everywhere, in sports where redshirting is common, would adhere to your dictum.  I believe the distinction is very relevant, as it differentiates the accomplishments of freshmen (to use your preferred term) like Kyle Dake and Yianni D, from redshirt freshmen.  But I don't think it's realistic to ever expect that.

[ugarte]

So, are all first year students to be called true freshmen, or only athletes?

I lean toward the group that says a freshman is first year and you use redshirt freshman as an athletic determination. I don't see why the "true" is needed. If redshirt is not added, then it's understood that it's the student's first year in college.

Here's the thing about language usage and evolution: the people who use the language get to determine how it is used, not the people parachuting in with prescriptivist opinions and rules that they find entirely logical for how other people should talk.

For people who discuss college sports and the participants in them, "true freshman" fills a linguistic need. The people talking about sports don't care whether the people observing them talk think it should fill a need or not.

Yes, only athletes are called "true freshmen" - students are referred to in terms of their progress towards a degree or the number of years that they've been on campus (there is no fixed usage rule for kids starting college with 20 AP credits), not the amount of NCAA eligibility they have left.

[George64]

The national title victory by Yianni Diakomihalis comes in at No. 1 on this week's #IvyTop5 Plays of the Week! #LGR #ILN

[Jim Hyla]

So, are all first year students to be called true freshmen, or only athletes?

I lean toward the group that says a freshman is first year and you use redshirt freshman as an athletic determination. I don't see why the "true" is needed. If redshirt is not added, then it's understood that it's the student's first year in college.

Here's the thing about language usage and evolution: the people who use the language get to determine how it is used, not the people parachuting in with prescriptivist opinions and rules that they find entirely logical for how other people should talk.

For people who discuss college sports and the participants in them, "true freshman" fills a linguistic need. The people talking about sports don't care whether the people observing them talk think it should fill a need or not.

Yes, only athletes are called "true freshmen" - students are referred to in terms of their progress towards a degree or the number of years that they've been on campus (there is no fixed usage rule for kids starting college with 20 AP credits), not the amount of NCAA eligibility they have left.

I don't see how I was "parachuting in with prescriptivist opinions and rules that they find entirely logical for how other people should talk". I was expressing my thoughts, just like you were. I said 'I don't see why the "true" is needed.' I never said it shouldn't be used.

For years I've understood the difference between freshman and redshirt freshman. If announcers and others fail to correctly make that distinction and they now feel that the word true has to be added, so they'll always say it correctly, so be it.

[billhoward]

So, are all first year students to be called true freshmen, or only athletes? I lean toward the group that says a freshman is first year and you use redshirt freshman as an athletic determination. I don't see why the "true" is needed. If redshirt is not added, then it's understood that it's the student's first year in college.

The usage that gets to me is the sports with the least regard for academic progress among many of the big time schools: football and basketball. When the announcer says "true freshman," other than joy of using additional padding words, he is almost expressing admiration that the kid can study and play a sport his first year on campus. \\

Ugarte finally has a good point, about "medical redshirt" as a useful retronym once that was hijacked for the any-reason-at-all first year in school and practicing but not playing.

[billhoward]

The national title victory by Yianni Diakomihalis comes in at No. 1 on this week's #IvyTop5 Plays of the Week! #LGR #ILN

Well, yeah, the Ivy Network would have to make it so. It would have been nice to be on ESPN's top 10 plays of the week along with 5 jams, a couple three-pointers, 2 home runs, the special needs kid who gets in the last minute of the game and sinks one from half court ... and Yanni.

[billhoward]

Here's the thing about language usage and evolution: the people who use the language get to determine how it is used, not the people parachuting in with prescriptivist opinions and rules that they find entirely logical for how other people should talk.

Ugarte hasn't got me turned around but he is winning the war of the quotable lines. And yes language is fluid and the winners are the people who use the phrases the most. They're going to make "literally blew him away with that slapshot" be an acceptable synonym for "figuratively." Ugarte's triple-P phrasing is up there with Spiro Agnew on the media as the "nattering nabobs of negativism." I hope life ends better for Ugarte.

[ugarte]

Here's the thing about language usage and evolution: the people who use the language get to determine how it is used, not the people parachuting in with prescriptivist opinions and rules that they find entirely logical for how other people should talk.

Ugarte hasn't got me turned around but he is winning the war of the quotable lines. And yes language is fluid and the winners are the people who use the phrases the most. They're going to make "literally blew him away with that slapshot" be an acceptable synonym for "figuratively." Ugarte's triple-P phrasing is up there with Spiro Agnew on the media as the "nattering nabobs of negativism." I hope life ends better for Ugarte.

I have news for you, Bill: "literally" has been used metaphorically for actually-literally centuries. Dickens used literally figuratively. You're wrong about that one too.

Just because you, personally, feel that if everyone were incredibly careful and specific about their usage of the term "freshman" there would be no need to further distinguish "freshman" from "redshirt freshman" does not mean that people are, in fact, that careful about their usage or that the umbrella term "freshman" can't be interpreted as referring to either a "true freshman" or a "redshirt freshman." Because there is that inherent ambiguity, people have seen fit to coin a retronym. It wasn't wrong of them to do so and lamenting it is a waste of your energy.

Feel free not to use the term but don't get mad if you call a player a freshman and someone asks "true or redshirt?"

[billhoward]

As language loosens, we'll see more, "Police homicide officials reported the dead body was found lying prone on the ground, face-down."

I missed EB White by a couple years, but he left a book and it mentioned the economy of words.

On the other hand, saying "true freshman" is a minor crime compared to posting news (or printing news) without it passing through an editor, or a literate editor, even a barely literate editor. And I don't believe E.B. had anything to say about what happens if, if a bar, you say, "I shall" rather than "Sure."

I will feel better Saturday around 4 p.m. knowing the Big Red is playing Sunday. And that lacrosse has taken down Penn.

[billhoward]

... after finishing the wrestling thread on good word usage, I tab over to Facebook and find this post about Elon Musk: " but this guy has to many irons in the fire and has taken his eye of the ball and the ball is going flat."

[George64]

Ugarte's triple-P phrasing is up there with Spiro Agnew on the media as the "nattering nabobs of negativism."

Agnew said it, but William Safire wrote it.  I still miss his column "On Language."