ECAC Inferiority

[Chris '03]

This probably deserves its own thread. It's something that's getting discussed somewhat in the tournament game(s) thread.  

Much has been made this week of Cornell's embarrassment at the hands of Yale and what the expectations should be for the Cornell program. The 1-3 showing from the ECAC in the NCAA tournament runs the league Frozen Four drought to at least 9, title game appearance drought to at least 22, and title drought to at least 23, nearly half the league's lifetime.

Why are ECAC teams routinely dispatched in the NCAA tournament? Is it simply a matter of skill, coaching, or level of competition in the league? Is there anything the league itself can do about it? Is the ECAC destined to take its place as the permanent #4, 5, or 6 conference that sends a team or two the the tournament every year to be fodder for hockey factories?  

I wonder if the "everyone gets in" playoff format has exacerbated the ECAC pain. The result of this format can lead the top teams in the league to see a lot of bad teams down the stretch (before today, the last t-20 PWR team Yale played was Dartmouth on February 5, for Union you have to go back to January 28, RPI Jan. 29). Would playing off only among the top 8 help at all? It'd be hard to schedule any non-conference games late in the season since every other conference goes insular at that stage of the season too. Since the change only Cornell has made it through and that was in the first year of the format.

[Scersk '97]

Without going into the whys, I'd like to address the whats.

I'd like to see:

(1a)  Back to the 8-team ECAC playoffs.  Go home, 9 through 12.  And no "play-in" BS.  (And, since we can't seem to decide on an adequate environment for the semis and championship, let's just make it three weeks of best-of-3 at the higher seed.)

or:

(1b) Back to the 8-team playoffs as above, but all conferences would cede their first-round BS weekend to the national tournament and the first round of the national tournament would go back to best-of-3s at the higher seed.

(2)  No more conference tournament quarterfinal (or quintifinal or sexifinal) losers in the NCAAs.  Teams that lose in the quarterfinals are, by definition, not strong teams and should hang up the skates for the offseason.  Under the current system, they get to rest up and get healthy for a week while the successful teams battle it out in the semis and finals of their conference tournaments.  Make consolation games mandatory, especially since they'd be meaningful for selection and seeding purposes.  (Dig deep and you'll note that we and RIT would have made a 16-team tournament under this rule.)  (I'm also very, very tired of seeing five teams from any conference in the NCAAs.  Yawn.)

These proposals would be adopted in my perfect world where we have begun using our nuclear arsenal to effect interstellar travel and Firefly was never cancelled.

[Trotsky]

Firefly was never cancelled.  It's just on hiatus.  Like Remember WENN.  Do not shake the few foundations of hope I have left.

In my perfect world the top 8 make the ECAC playoffs and the Ivy game limit and schedule are made the same as those of the non-Ivy ECAC.  IMHO the challenges in the NCAA tournament will not get easier short of giving scholarships and admitting guys with a total 950 on their SATs.

[jtwcornell91]

Not the thread title I would have liked, but I guess it fits the observation I was about to make.  North Dakota and Denver will play tonight in a battle of WCHA teams in the NCAA tournament.  If Yale and Union had held serve on Friday, we would have seen an all-ECAC NCAA QF last night.  I remember that in 1996 we would have played Vermont in the quarterfinals if we'd beat higher-seeded LSSU.  It made me realize I couldn't remember an NCAA game between ECAC teams.  Looking back at TBRW's NCAA history I confirmed my suspicion that it hasn't happened since the Divorce:

• Last NCAA tournament game between ECAC teams: 1982 consolation game: Northeastern 10, New Hampshire 4
• Last NCAA tournament game between current ECAC teams: 1980 consolation game: Dartmouth 8, Cornell 4
• Last non-consolation NCAA tournament game between ECAC teams: 1978 national championship game: Boston University 5, Boston College 3
• Last non-consolation NCAA tournament game between current ECAC teams: 1970 national championship game: Cornell 6, Clarkson 4

In comparison, the CCHA had Miami and Michigan in the NCAA QF in 2010, and Hockey East had BU and Vermont in the 2009 NCAA semifinals.

(Note that College Hockey America missed out on a chance to have two of their teams meet in the NCAA regionals last year when 2M Bemidji State and 4M Alabama-Huntsville both lost in the first round.)

[jtwcornell91]

Not the thread title I would have liked, but I guess it fits the observation I was about to make.  North Dakota and Denver will play tonight in a battle of WCHA teams in the NCAA tournament.  If Yale and Union had held serve on Friday, we would have seen an all-ECAC NCAA QF last night.  I remember that in 1996 we would have played Vermont in the quarterfinals if we'd beat higher-seeded LSSU.  It made me realize I couldn't remember an NCAA game between ECAC teams.  Looking back at TBRW's NCAA history I confirmed my suspicion that it hasn't happened since the Divorce:

• Last NCAA tournament game between ECAC teams: 1982 consolation game: Northeastern 10, New Hampshire 4
• Last NCAA tournament game between current ECAC teams: 1980 consolation game: Dartmouth 8, Cornell 4
• Last non-consolation NCAA tournament game between ECAC teams: 1978 national championship game: Boston University 5, Boston College 3
• Last non-consolation NCAA tournament game between current ECAC teams: 1970 national championship game: Cornell 6, Clarkson 4

In comparison, the CCHA had Miami and Michigan in the NCAA QF in 2010, and Hockey East had BU and Vermont in the 2009 NCAA semifinals.

(Note that College Hockey America missed out on a chance to have two of their teams meet in the NCAA regionals last year when 2M Bemidji State and 4M Alabama-Huntsville both lost in the first round.)

Oh, wait, I forgot a technicality: 2002 NCAA First Round: Cornell 6, Quinnipiac 2.  Of course, Quinnipiac was still a member of the MAAC back then, but I guess it satisfies "between current ECAC teams".  (Thanks to http://www.tbrw.info/ecac_History/ecac_NCAA_Records_by_Team.htm which made me realize that with Union's entry this year, every current ECAC team has played in the NCAAs, if you include Q's appearance as MAAC champions.)

Actually,

[ursusminor]

IMO, none of the three ECAC teams did enough to stop the EZAC comments. In order to justify their seeds, Yale would have had to at least make the FF, Union would have had to win a game, and RPI would have had to keep their game close. We could have gotten away with two of the three.

Rondeau had an off night and probably wasn't as good as some thought he was. He just was much better than Yale's goalies a year ago.

Union seemed to suffer from stage fright.

RPI just didn't have nearly the depth of talent that UND has. Also good big men are better than good little men. It really would have been nice if RPI had scored a goal. They have now gone over 10 periods of NCAA tourney play without one.

From a personal point of view, the experience should serve RPI well for next season assuming that York doesn't turn pro. According to a recent article, the odds are 50-50.

[Rosey]

I think I'd mostly like to see more OOC games. The ECAC has become a walled garden with member teams playing at a level that evidently doesn't compare to that played on the national stage. The only solution to this that I can see is to escape it as much as possible, and this goes for every team in the conference. I don't know how you get more OOC games, though: good teams don't want to play scrubs because there's nothing for them to gain, so there may be some hat-in-hand debasement necessary for the first few years in order to get those games.

This is rough: the ECAC has dug itself into a hole that is going to be very difficult to get out of.

[RichH]

I think I'd mostly like to see more OOC games. The ECAC has become a walled garden with member teams playing at a level that evidently doesn't compare to that played on the national stage. The only solution to this that I can see is to escape it as much as possible, and this goes for every team in the conference. I don't know how you get more OOC games, though: good teams don't want to play scrubs because there's nothing for them to gain, so there may be some hat-in-hand debasement necessary for the first few years in order to get those games.

This is rough: the ECAC has dug itself into a hole that is going to be very difficult to get out of.

Agree. Sometimes a walled garden situation can be beneficial, like the ACC lacrosse league, or I'm sure the BTHC will prove to be. But in this case, it's just bad. Ivy restrictions can shoulder some of the blame...there's no doubt in my mind that the late starting dates and game limits hurt the league as a whole.  Another thing that really bugs me...scheduling precious OOC games vs. other ECAC schools. I don't care if it's Clarkson-SLU in Ottawa, or Cornell-Colgate in Newark or Union-RPI "Halloween Faceoff," this in-league "non-conference" inbreeding should stop. Non-conference games should be against non-conference foes. OOC games are limited, and increasingly important for SOS considerations for at-large bids.  Plus, it can only help the league, even if some of those have to be against weaker CCHA or AHA opponents. Pissing away valuable OOC slots is stupid, IMO.

[Scersk '97]

I don't care if it's Clarkson-SLU in Ottawa, or Cornell-Colgate in Newark or Union-RPI "Halloween Faceoff," this in-league "non-conference" inbreeding should stop. Non-conference games should be against non-conference foes. OOC games are limited, and increasingly important for SOS considerations for at-large bids.  Plus, it can only help the league, even if some of those have to be against weaker CCHA or AHA opponents. Pissing away valuable OOC slots is stupid, IMO.

Hugely agreed.  Considering that teams may be forced to play each other five teams in a season to begin with, it seems incredibly stupid to waste OOC games this way.  That "Ivy Shootout" that began this year, one must assume at Yale's behest, wasted two of seven games for four teams.  Ridiculous.  As far as our scheduling goes, I hope the failure of Colgate-Cornell in Newark put this to rest.

[Ronald '09]

I don't care if it's Clarkson-SLU in Ottawa, or Cornell-Colgate in Newark or Union-RPI "Halloween Faceoff," this in-league "non-conference" inbreeding should stop. Non-conference games should be against non-conference foes. OOC games are limited, and increasingly important for SOS considerations for at-large bids.  Plus, it can only help the league, even if some of those have to be against weaker CCHA or AHA opponents. Pissing away valuable OOC slots is stupid, IMO.

Hugely agreed.  Considering that teams may be forced to play each other five teams in a season to begin with, it seems incredibly stupid to waste OOC games this way.  That "Ivy Shootout" that began this year, one must assume at Yale's behest, wasted two of seven games for four teams.  Ridiculous.  As far as our scheduling goes, I hope the failure of Colgate-Cornell in Newark put this to rest.

To be fair, wasn't the Newark game supposed to be against Northeastern until something fell through?  Other than that, the only non-conference games against ECAC teams in the last five years have been in Estero.  Unless I'm forgetting some.

[Trotsky]

Because intra-conference NC games are such a waste I have to wonder whether they're driven by Unpleasant Facts, like the inability to schedule better opposition.

[ursusminor]

RPI coach Seth Appert claims that extra games against Union are scheduled in order to build a rivalry. The ECAC non-Ivies play more OOC games than anyone except UAH which makes it hard for them to fill the schedule. RPI's OOC schedule for next season, as shown on the season-ticket application, starts off quite well in October with

10/7 MSU Mankato
10/8 MSU Mankato
10/14 @ Ferris
10/15 @ Ferris
10/21 @ Notre Dame
10/28 Colorado College
10/29 Colorado College

The rest is not too good (Bentley, @ Union, RIT, UML@UConn and either UConn or Army @ UConn).

[Rosey]

Because intra-conference NC games are such a waste I have to wonder whether they're driven by Unpleasant Facts, like the inability to schedule better opposition.

This is my worry.

[Rosey]

The ECAC non-Ivies play more OOC games than anyone except UAH which makes it hard for them to fill the schedule.

This is indeed part of the conundrum for the ECAC: teams in HE, WCHA, and CCHA don't have to play OOC games to toughen their schedules.

[Dafatone]

The "odd" part to me is the PWR.  This isn't college basketball, where huge piles of teams are evaluated by a nebulous and shady committee.  There's a rule to who gets in.  So if the ECAC is overrated, maybe that's a problem with PWR?