#13 Cornell at Brown, Feb 24

[jkahn]

yup.. just either of those games last week we we stay pretty close to top 10 in in PWR.. now we need to play well the next 3(hopefully) and see where we are.

Minn St and Omaha losing tonight would help us.  Omaha down 5-1 and hopefully get swept.

Minn St. lost and Omaha is down 6-2 with 5 mins left.  We're back up to #12.

But we need to keep winning to stay off the bubble.

It's just really tightly bunched between #12 (us at the moment) and #20 Northeastern.   There's only a .0060 difference between 12 and 20 in RPI.  Northeastern fell from #14 to #20 with a loss tonight.  There's not a whole lot of upside, as there's a .0129 difference between #11 and #12.  My intuitive math tells me we will likely need to win the next 3 to make the NCAA's if we don't win the ECAC's, with a chance of getting there if we go 4-2 losing in the ECAC finals and things break right in the other tournaments.

[Al DeFlorio]

Ivy Standings from the official site:

Code Select Expand


Hvd 9-1-0 .900
Cor 7-2-0 .833
Prn 5-5-0 .550
Drt 3-6-1 .350
Yal 2-7-0 .278
Brn 2-7-1 .250


Let's pretend, for a moment, that it is correct (god knows if it is).  Let's start with the obvious, Hvd at .900.  That means winning in overtime is credited at a full win.

So now we go to Cornell.  The ECAC's 3-point system would give us 22/27 = .815 , so that isn't it.  How about getting 1 for an overtime loss in a 2-point system?  That would be 15/18 = .833.  AHA!!!

So let's say the rule is: 2 points for a win in regulation or overtime, 0 for a loss in regulation, 1 for a loss in overtime (thus generating a 3-point game), and no idea for a shootout win or loss.

Results:

Code Select Expand


Hvd 9-1-0 .900 18/20 .900 (3 OT W)
Cor 7-2-0 .833 15/18 .833 (1 OT L)
Prn 5-5-0 .550 11/20 .550 (1 OT L)
Drt 3-6-1 .350  7/20 .350 (1 SH W)
Yal 2-7-0 .278  5/18 .278 (1 OT L)
Brn 2-7-1 .250  5/20 .250 (1 SH L)


So we know a shootout is just 1 point either way, and the mystery is solved.

The Ivy League point system is:

2 points for a win in regulation or overtime
1 for a loss in overtime
1 for reaching the shootout, result unimportant
0 for a loss in regulation


Cornell cannot win even a share of the Ivy title.

From the CornellBigRed article this morning:

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

[Trotsky]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

What is "CornellBigRed"?

[Give My Regards]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

I learned all I needed to know about the Ivy League website by looking at the 2021-22 standings.  They list both "Ivy pct." which matches the method Greg details above, and "Ivy points" which matches the 3-point system the ECAC uses.  I don't know which one the Ivies used to determine the champion, as Harvard won it either way, but I do know they're both wrong, as those standings don't account for Cornell's OT win over Brown last year.  (Brown's "Ivy pct." should be 0.550 and both should have 16 "Ivy points" )

Also, regarding "Ivy pct", it makes perfect sense that the Ivies would use a "percentage" in which some games count for 2 points and some (OT results) count for 3 -- because it's fucking stupid.

[Al DeFlorio]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

What is "CornellBigRed"?

https://cornellbigred.com/

[Trotsky]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

What is "CornellBigRed"?

https://cornellbigred.com/

What are the odds they bothered to check with the Ivy League on their assumptions?  (I know, what are the odds they would get the same answer if they asked two different between at the League?)

TBRW will officially list Harvard as the winner of the title no matter what because otherwise is stupid.

[BearLover]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

What is "CornellBigRed"?

https://cornellbigred.com/

What are the odds they bothered to check with the Ivy League on their assumptions?  (I know, what are the odds they would get the same answer if they asked two different between at the League?)

TBRW will officially list Harvard as the winner of the title no matter what because otherwise is stupid.

Why would TBRW list Harvard as the winner if Cornell (assuming they win tonight) has more points in the standings, based on how college hockey has calculated points for several years now? If Cornell wins tonight, they had a better record against Ivy opponents and they thus win the Ivy League. 3x3 OT win is worth 2 points, regulation win is worth 3. Makes much more sense than counting 3x3 as equal to 5x5.

[nyc94]

Ivy Standings from the official site:

Code Select Expand


Hvd 9-1-0 .900
Cor 7-2-0 .833
Prn 5-5-0 .550
Drt 3-6-1 .350
Yal 2-7-0 .278
Brn 2-7-1 .250


Let's pretend, for a moment, that it is correct (god knows if it is).  Let's start with the obvious, Hvd at .900.  That means winning in overtime is credited at a full win.

So now we go to Cornell.  The ECAC's 3-point system would give us 22/27 = .815 , so that isn't it.  How about getting 1 for an overtime loss in a 2-point system?  That would be 15/18 = .833.  AHA!!!

So let's say the rule is: 2 points for a win in regulation or overtime, 0 for a loss in regulation, 1 for a loss in overtime (thus generating a 3-point game), and no idea for a shootout win or loss.

Results:

Code Select Expand


Hvd 9-1-0 .900 18/20 .900 (3 OT W)
Cor 7-2-0 .833 15/18 .833 (1 OT L)
Prn 5-5-0 .550 11/20 .550 (1 OT L)
Drt 3-6-1 .350  7/20 .350 (1 SH W)
Yal 2-7-0 .278  5/18 .278 (1 OT L)
Brn 2-7-1 .250  5/20 .250 (1 SH L)


So we know a shootout is just 1 point either way, and the mystery is solved.

The Ivy League point system is:

2 points for a win in regulation or overtime
1 for a loss in overtime
1 for reaching the shootout, result unimportant
0 for a loss in regulation


Cornell cannot win even a share of the Ivy title.

From the CornellBigRed article this morning:

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The Harvard record book has Cornell at 23 titles but is missing 1983. They have Harvard tied for first in 1983 but not who they shared the title with like they do for other years. The Ivy site https://ivyleague.com/sports/2018/7/11/GEN_0711185653.aspx has discrepancies. Looks like it short changes Cornell in 1966, gives Harvard a title in 1959 that their own site gives to Dartmouth and bumps everything up a year until 1967. And it has two identical rows for 1971-72.

[dbilmes]

No one has started a thread yet for tonight's game at Yale, and I'm reluctant to do so, so I'll post this note here. Yale is playing much better than it was at the beginning of the season, when it was averaging about 1 goal per game. It's won four of its last seven games, including two in a row, scoring 4 goals in each of its last 2 games. It also did something we couldn't do -- avoid losing to Clarkson. This promises to be much tougher than last night's game in Providence.

[George64]

The Ivy League point system is:

2 points for a win in regulation or overtime
1 for a loss in overtime
1 for reaching the shootout, result unimportant
0 for a loss in regulation


Cornell cannot win even a share of the Ivy title.

Apparently not according to tonight's Game Notes — a regulation win is 3 points and an OT or SO win is 2 points.  Harvard concluded Ivy play with 24 points and going into tonight's game, we have 22. So a with regulation win, we capture the Ivy title outright, with an OT win we tie.

If so, Harvard's Ivy win percentage would be .800 and, ours, currently, would be .778, so someone's wrong — either the league or our SI department.  All the more reason to have five minute sudden death OTs and allow for ties.
.

[Dafatone]

Maybe the Ivy League hasn't announced the point system because there is no point system. We're just supposed to guess.

[marty]

Maybe the Ivy League hasn't announced the point system because there is no point system. We're just supposed to guess.

You will know what's in the point system after we pass the point system.  The Cantabridgian Council must convene before the announcement is finalized.

[Al DeFlorio]

Maybe the Ivy League hasn't announced the point system because there is no point system. We're just supposed to guess.

You will know what's in the point system after we pass the point system.  The Cantabridgian Council must convene before the announcement is finalized.

Won't matter if Cornell doesn't win tonight.

[Scersk '97]

"A regulation victory for the Big Red would ensure an outright Ivy League title for Cornell, which would be the program's 25th title. With a win in overtime or a shootout, Cornell would share the Ancient Eight title with Harvard."

The only problem with that is, the Ivy League apparently does not agree.

What is "CornellBigRed"?

https://cornellbigred.com/

What are the odds they bothered to check with the Ivy League on their assumptions?  (I know, what are the odds they would get the same answer if they asked two different between at the League?)

TBRW will officially list Harvard as the winner of the title no matter what because otherwise is stupid.

Why would TBRW list Harvard as the winner if Cornell (assuming they win tonight) has more points in the standings, based on how college hockey has calculated points for several years now? If Cornell wins tonight, they had a better record against Ivy opponents and they thus win the Ivy League. 3x3 OT win is worth 2 points, regulation win is worth 3. Makes much more sense than counting 3x3 as equal to 5x5.

As far as I'm concerned, Cornell is 7-1-1 in the Ivies and Harvard is 6-1-3, since 3x3 OT victories are bullshit. So, 15 points vs. 15 points right now. In my made up world, we're already Ivy Champs and can make it outright with a win or a "tie." Harvard only has any claim to the title at the moment because they are the masters of derp points; thus, what Trotsky is proposing is absolutely nonsensical.

But, you know, that's fine. YMMV.

[Trotsky]

Why would TBRW list Harvard as the winner if Cornell (assuming they win tonight) has more points in the standings, based on how college hockey has calculated points for several years now?

Because the three point system is fucking stupid.

But as was noted in a different response, we could just count overtime decisions as ties, since 3x3 sullied overtime.  That seems quite reasonable.

In that case, it is Harvard 6-1-3 15 points, Cornell 7-1-1 15 points, going into tonight.

As that is even more of a middle finger to the Creeping Meatballism of TPTB, okay, I am convinced.