Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread

[Lauren '06]

[Q]Jordan 04 Wrote:

 [Q2]KP '06 Wrote:

 [Q2]calgARI '07 Wrote:

 Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet.  Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever.  [/Q]
Not to mention that, despite the Brown band not being there, the rink staff decided to enforce the NCAA rule about visiting bands only having 25 instruments. Yale also did this, but at least we knew it was coming -- they are usually dicks, while I've never seen Brown ever have a problem with 40-member bands. The end result was that 15 bandies made the trip but didn't get to play all weekend, while the remaining 25 traded time with Brown's talentless DJ.

I was half expecting Freebird by the 2nd period break.[/Q]
I certainly hope this isn't saying that the same 15 kids sat out both games.[/q]
Unfortunately yeah, it is.  Both nights I asked for volunteers first, and for the most part the same five-six people volunteered to sit out, either alumni or former woodwinds learning to play brass instruments.  After that I asked the band how many flutes and clarinets were absolutely necessary in a band of 25, and the overwhelming response I got was "none," so I went from there.  It's unfortunate and I'm thankful to those people for being good sports about not being able to play all weekend, but sometimes when you're in a bind you've got to put your best band forward.  It's like coaching youth soccer and benching the same kids week after week.  It makes you sick but it's necessary.  Rest assured they got suck points.

[Al DeFlorio]

[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/q]
Agree.  

But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.

[Scersk '97]

Well, quite obviously, with any band that comes to Lynah, you limit them in retaliation or let them bring as many as they want.  *Now*, if the Brownies come, you limit them to 25; if Yale comes, you limit them to 25.  (Make sure to notify their band leaders this next week of restrictions that would be imposed on them should they decide to make the trip.  Tell them why and tell them it's non-negotiable.)  When Clarkson comes, you let them use as many as they want, with the explicit understanding that you'll be able to bring as many as you want to Cheel.  It's like imposing trade embargoes (O that curs-ed Ograbme!  How he nicks 'em!) and engaging in Mexican standoffs.

Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth.  Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past.  (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.)  Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?  Maybe you should talk to Pat too.  Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible.   Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved.  Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.

If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers.  Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad.  Call 'em cowards and martinets.  Spin it well:  say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return?  Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort.  (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.)  Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.

Give 'em hell, hooligans.

[Lauren '06]

[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:

 Well, quite obviously, with any band that comes to Lynah, you limit them in retaliation or let them bring as many as they want.  *Now*, if the Brownies come, you limit them to 25; if Yale comes, you limit them to 25.  (Make sure to notify their band leaders this next week of restrictions that would be imposed on them should they decide to make the trip.  Tell them why and tell them it's non-negotiable.)  When Clarkson comes, you let them use as many as they want, with the explicit understanding that you'll be able to bring as many as you want to Cheel.  It's like imposing trade embargoes (O that curs-ed Ograbme!  How he nicks 'em!) and engaging in Mexican standoffs.

Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth.  Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past.  (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.)  Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?  Maybe you should talk to Pat too.  Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible.   Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved.  Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.

If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers.  Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad.  Call 'em cowards and martinets.  Spin it well:  say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return?  Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort.  (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.)  Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.

Give 'em hell, hooligans.[/q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands.  Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past.  Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem.  I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas.  Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.

[Scersk '97]

[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:

 [Q2]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth.  Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past.  (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.)  Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?[/Q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands.  Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past.  Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem.  I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas.  Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.[/q]
Unless their athletics goons apologize and state, in writing, that they won't limit the Cornell band again, I still say you have to encourage our own administration to limit them.  You have to do something or they'll just continue to pull this kind of crap.  Say whatever you want to the Brown band to make them feel better about the situation, but I think they would understand your position.  They're Brownies:  they should undertand protests and negotiations.

[Lauren '06]

[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:

 [Q2]Section A Banshee Wrote:

 [Q2]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth.  Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past.  (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.)  Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?[/Q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands.  Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past.  Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem.  I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas.  Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.[/Q]
Unless their athletics goons apologize and state, in writing, that they won't limit the Cornell band again, I still say you have to encourage our own administration to limit them.  You have to do something or they'll just continue to pull this kind of crap.  Say whatever you want to the Brown band to make them feel better about the situation, but I think they would understand your position.  They're Brownies:  they should undertand protests and negotiations.[/q]
But do we have a leg to stand on?  If the regulation that visiting bands may only have 25 players does exist, and Cornell just doesn't enforce it, why should other rinks change to accommodate us no matter what we decide to do?  Then all we're doing is hurting our fellow bands.  Or, on the flip side, there's the fact that the Brown band probably doesn't even have more than 25 people to play and travel anyway.  I'd rather take it to the top first and find out if the phantom regulation exists before we play hardball.

[calgARI '07]

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:

 [Q2]calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/Q]
Agree.  

But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.[/q]

I won't disagree that depth is a MAJOR issue.  They have 14 forwards and #13 and #14 are freshmen.  If this team runs into injury trouble, it could be a huge problem.  The problem is that the coaching staff never forecasted losing Hynes early.   I sure hope Chris Abbott is okay.

[Scersk '97]

[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
But do we have a leg to stand on?  If the regulation that visiting bands may only have 25 players does exist, and Cornell just doesn't enforce it, why should other rinks change to accommodate us no matter what we decide to do?  Then all we're doing is hurting our fellow bands.  Or, on the flip side, there's the fact that the Brown band probably doesn't even have more than 25 people to play and travel anyway.  I'd rather take it to the top first and find out if the phantom regulation exists before we play hardball.[/q]

Oh, certainly, it's always better to try first through normal diplomatic channels.  I would play hardball if that didn't work, but you guys should do what you want.  It's your band.

I'm pretty much assuming that this rule is a complete fabrication.  As I said somewhere else (I think it may have been in a "discussion" [flame war] over on USCHO), the 25-member limit is just for distributing free tickets and per diem for NCAA championship events.  In fact, if you don't bring enough people, the NCAA makes it very clear (somewhere) that they'll reduce your per diem, i.e., it's not just some pool of money that you divide yourself--there are requirements.

Anyway, back to the point:  What would stop opposing schools from limiting the number of visiting marching band members?  How about fans in general?  Bannings, limitations, etc. have to come from higher up than rink managers, so that's probably where this situation should be handled.

[Chris \'03]

For what it's worth, when we tried to bring a band to the Carrier Dome for basketball in '02 and Syracuse said no, the NCAA said they couldn't compel them to do anything because it wasn't an NCAA-run event, they directed me to the Big East. They told me that as a policy the league flat out didn't allow visiting bands. The only time you'd see two bands is at MSG for their tournament. However, because it was a non-league game, they deferred to SU, who after much pleading (kudos to Steve Donahue) relented and let us show up.

Obviously basketball is a different animal, but the hierarchy is the same. Given that these are league games, ECAC and to a lesser extent Ivy regs would come into play before school policy.

If you're looking for what's actually in writing, a good place to start at the conference level is probably Laura Stange the former CU SID turned Assistant Commisioner.

Also of note from the Ivy Bands Agreement:
[Q]Each band will contact its respective ticket office in the Spring or before football season to attempt to secure adequate and equitable seating for visiting bands at football, hockey, and basketball games for the coming year. The visiting bands will be responsible for procuring those seats, but the host bands will make sure that their ticket offices are expecting these bands. If any problems arise involving tickets or seating, visiting bands should feel free to ask the assistance of the host band. The host band will find out and inform the visiting band of any ticket limits imposed by the host school's athletic department at least one week in advance.[/Q]

[Robb]

[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:

 [Q2]Al DeFlorio Wrote:

 [Q2]calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/Q]
Agree.  

But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.[/Q]
I won't disagree that depth is a MAJOR issue.  They have 14 forwards and #13 and #14 are freshmen.  If this team runs into injury trouble, it could be a huge problem.  The problem is that the coaching staff never forecasted losing Hynes early.   I sure hope Chris Abbott is okay.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11/07/05 12:37AM by calgARI '07.[/q]

Well, we've pulled in J-frosh goalies before in emergency situations.  Think Gallagher is ready yet?

[billhoward]

Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts. And they care even less about your wanting to bring 40 people to play instead of 25. Only your opposites on the home team bands seem to care. Good for them. (Schafer problably likes you there on the road because you're one more fractional disruption of the home team advantage. Plus if some Yale recruit is in the stands and he sees more enthusiasm from the Cornell visitors and band than the home team, he's going to wonder why he's applying to Yale. And maybe Schafer does this because he's a decent guy.)  

This not so gentle shafting happens regardless of the subversion of the ideal of good, friendly competition among student-athletes and their supporters and alumni.

The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration.

[Scersk '97]

[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts.[/q]

Well, thanks for being the voice of pessimism, since, as Cornell students and grads, none of us have any idea how these things usually play out.  ::rolleyes::

Myself, I'd like to think this thing happened through someone having an "idea" and not really checking with other people.  If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.

[Trotsky]

[Q]billhoward Wrote:
The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration. [/q]

Another useful real life lesson.

Nobody in the university establishment above the level of unpaid associate SID summer intern is going to spend more than 11 seconds on the issue of whether the 26th band member gets to bring his or her instrument into the barn.  My advice is that flutes aren't much bigger than fish; use your imagination.  Clarinets -- I still have nightmares about my 7th grade clarinet teacher, so I'm low on sympathy -- but if people can smuggle an entire Toyota into the country one piece at a time, I'm sure the Faithful can think of something.

[gatitita '05]

[Q] As far as I'm concerned, if SHORTS can't find something in a policy, it must not exist.[/q]

seriously.  how feasible is asking the rink manager to show you the rule before he can enforce it?  make them find it!

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:

 If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.[/q]

If our AD is any indication, embarrassment is not in the skill set of an AD.    ::rolleyes::