Cornell vs. Clarkson in the Late 60s

[Scersk '97]

Perhaps this isn't the best time to bring this subject up, considering that it will probably lead to another flame war, but I was wondering why there was a large gap in scheduled meetings between Cornell and Clarkson during the late 60s, when the two, undoubtedly, were amongst the best teams in the East.

Between November 29th, 1966 (Dryden's "that damn bell at Clarkson" comment) and February 2nd, 1971, the only regular season game between the two was at the 1967 ECAC Holiday Festival in New York City.  I understand that ECAC scheduling at the time was voluntary and unbalanced, but, if you look at Berge's TBRW chart of regular season meetings at Lynah http://www.tbrw.info/cornellHistory/lynahRS.html, no other team (save BU, who obviously wouldn't deign to play us at Lynah for a bit) displays a similar gap.

So, older folks, why did that happen?  Was there some sort of animosity between Ceglarski and Harkness?  I would've understood if it were Harvard that refused to play us--writers at the Crimson during the time were constantly complaining about Harkness's "unfair" recruiting of Canadians http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=351588 --but Clarkson, at the time, was a very good fit.

And, secondary ruminations:

1)  Why did we play Maine so much there for a while?
2)  Looking at the standings from the early years of the three division ECAC http://www.augenblick.org/chha/h_ecrs.html, Cornell was playing a game more than some of the other Ivys.  I've looked and, typically, this game was vs. SLU.  Any reasons?

[RichS]

The short answer is that it had a LOT to do with Harkness's animosity towards Lenny C.   He basically refused to make the North Country trip which normally involved playing Tech and SLU on consecutive nights as is done now.  When they did play on 2/2/71, it was a single game trip on a Tueday night...I remember it well!  When asked why he didnt want to make the trip as most other teams did, Ned was SUPPOSED to have said ( I do not know this for sure)..."Why should we?  We're Cornell!"

Note that the only way Clarkson was able to get cornell to play at Tech on 2/2/71, a game that I saw live as a freshman and which is still the most exciting game I have ever seen at any level, was to agree to play at Lynah the following two years.  Clarkson won the '71 game on an OT GWG by Alf Maki.

In one of the next two years at Lynah, Clarkson ended cornell's long home ice unbeaten streak which was something like 74 games?  I forget the exact number, it may have been greater.

There's a lot to the history of the rivalry back then but I don't have time right now.  I'm sure Al D has a take on it as well, as well as any other "old-timers".

[Larry72]

Yes, Clarkson ended the longest Lynah Rink home ice unbeaten streak at 63 home games.  It ran from January 14, 1967 through January 29, 1972.  I was in at Ithaca High School when it started and a senior at Cornell when it ended.  Quite a ride.  And that Clarkson game...that was the only home lost in the 1971-72 season.

Overall from beginning of the 1965 season through 1974, nine years, Cornell lost just four home games and tied once.  

Larry '72

[jkahn]

[Q]RichS Wrote:

" 2/2/71, a game that I saw live as a freshman and which is still the most exciting game I have ever seen at any level "[/q]

From a Cornell perspective, disappointing was the word rather than exciting.  Rich, I'd appreciate if you could refresh my memory - I think Brian McCutcheon scored the Cornell goal, perhaps late in the game.  Other things I do remember was that it was -17 F in Potsdam that day and Kevin Pettit didn't play as he had been suspended (perhaps for fighting in the previous game).  I'm sure it was exciting, but we all know the truly exciting ones are the ones you win.

[ACM]

I was there too.

Bill Duthie scored the Cornell goal 1:52 into the second period. Bob Baldwin tied it for Clarkson midway through the third. And Maki got the game-winner with 42 seconds left in OT.

And yes, Pettit got a fighting major in the previous game and had to sit out the Clarkson game.

[adamw]

FYI - I wasn't there - I was less than a year old ... but in the book Arthur and I did, there's a photo from this game by none other than Larry (thanks again Larry).  The photo is of the Duthie goal.   In the caption, Len Ceglarski is quoted as saying it was "the greatest college hockey game I've ever seen."

Or you could buy the book (*cough* shameless-plug *cough*)

[RichS]

I think I would remember this game just as clearly, though not as fondly naturally, had cornell won.  Somewhere here I have th e program from the game, just one of those standard "Coke", or was it "Pepsi" 4 page things with the lineups inside...no stats, pictures, or schedules, just the lineup.  It's a mess, I really should have taken better care of it.

The goaltending was superb, Bruce "Bulldog" Bullock, the two time AA vs Brian Cropper.  I think Bruce was an inch taller, something like 5 '7" vs Cropper's 5'6".   Each made a handful of dazzling saves!  And SOG were equal until Maki's GWG.  The place went nuts!

But then, it had been nuts for days leading up to the game.  After all, it was the first meeting between the teams that had battled in both the ECAC and NCAA finals the previous year.  All of us science and enginnering frosh had a big Physics exam coming up the next night so....at 4 pm, when the doors to Clarkson Arena opened, a throng of freshmen began filing in.  And soon, there we were...sitting in coats and scarves and gloves in the frigid arena, studying Physics.  If I said we studied for hours until the game began, I'd be exaggerating but there are pictures in the yearbook of us doing so.  Some of us had "liquids" to keep us warm.

When the pep band showed up and started to play about 30-45 mins before game time, finally we had something to break the monotony of studying.  A sign of how crazy that place would be took place when the teams hit the ice for warm-up.  The volume was deafening and all these years later, I recall that it was just as loud the entire game with the capper coming when Maki ended it.

As a life long Ranger fan, I still feel that this game far surpassed any of their playoff games for sheer pulse-pounding emotion and excitement in the Rangers' 94 Cup year....and I saw them all except one.

Funny how I forgot that Duthie and Baldwin scored the first two goals.  I remember Duthie and always thougt he was underrated.  And Baldwin?  He never saw a lot of ice time, he was not a standout skater either, but he sure had a nose for the net.  I bet the longest shot he ever scored on was 6 feet.

A classic game, I wonder if anyone filmed it.  That was the one that personally established the great Clarkson-Cornell rivalry.

[RichS]

Adam,

How do I get a copy?

I do recall Lenny talking to us about that game at a Clarkson hockey reuniion a few years back.  

[Beeeej]

Follow the link on the main Forum page... it's a photo of the book's cover.

Outstanding book.

Beeeej

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]Beeeej Wrote:
Outstanding book.

Beeeej[/q]
I second that.

[Scersk '97]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.  Keep 'em comin'.

In general, I try to forget losses.  I really can't remember many outside of the playoffs.  (I still have nightmares of LSSU's Aldredge darting from the penalty box to corral a gift breakaway puck and put it home.)

Save one.  A 7-5 barnstormer at Gutterson in 1997 where the heretofore offensively anemic Red came surging back from a large first period deficit only to fall barely short.  Stick checks, the Gutterson "vomitorium," the look on our players' faces as if they would've played a thousand extra periods if allowed:  this game was the moment they decided to start taking the season seriously, setting up the eventual championship.

[ninian '72]

After consulting the schedule in those days on TBRW, I'm not sure the record backs up the argument that Ned refused to make the North Country trip:

Year   Clarkson   St. Lawrence

64      H               A
65      A               H
66      H               --
67      A               H
68      ECAC Hol   A
          Tourn
69      --               A
70      --               ECAC Hol
                            Tourn
71      A                H
72      H                A

(Bertrand took over as coach in 71.  These years added for comparison.)

So the only years there was no North Country trip were 1966 and 1970.  Remember that this was before the Hockey East split and that Cornell played each Ivy home and away.  Didn't leave much latitude to play each of the other ECAC teams more than once.  By way of comparison BU - probably our biggest rival in the later Harkness years - didn't enter our schedule until 67 (Boston Arena Holiday Tournament) and didn't enter our RS H/A series until 68.  Most years we played them only once in the RS, but we did alternate H & A until at least the mid-70's.  I have no idea wheter there was bad blood between Ned and Ceglarski, but the Clarkson series looks fairly typical for the time.

[ursusminor]

The North Country trip is defined as playing in Canton and Potsdam on back-to-back nights, as RPI has done every year except for one since 1951-52. Anything less is being wimpy (or sane ;-) ).

Since a link to Adam's book has been posted, I'll give Kurt Stutt a plug. If anyone wants to see Ned in his younger days. :-)  http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rpibookstore/noname16.html. Also available from Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Edit: It also contains a picture of Doug Hearns scoring against Ken Somebody in December 1968. :-D

[adamw]

Thanks all ... Yeah, Rich, just follow the link as Beeej suggested...

I didn't even realize Kurt had done a similar book.  Wish he, or someone, would've said something earlier.  We should be pumping that on USCHO too.

[ninian '72]

[Q]ursaminor Wrote:

 The North Country trip is defined as playing in Canton and Potsdam on back-to-back nights, as RPI has done every year except for one since 1951-52. Anything less is being wimpy (or sane  ). [/q]

If you say so. ::rolleyes:: FWIW, Cornell didn't schedule any back-to-back games in those days, except for tournaments.  Typically they played a mid-week game and then Saturday.  (Most of the ECAC schedule worked like this.)  The travel pattern to the North Country was consistent with the remainder of Cornell's schedule.  RichS calling Ned out for refusing to schedule a two-game North Country trip just doesn't make sense in this context.