Money: Cornellians lost to (and gained from) the portal

[BearLover]

I don't think the problem will be getting the money. I think the issue will be how to distribute the money in such a way that flies by Cornell/Ivy/NCAA rules.  NIL is not a pay-for-play bucket. (and yes I know many teams get around this - but ... Ivy)

Exactly this.

I don't think I am violating any expectation of privacy by saying that at one of the Coach's Club luncheons, when Casey was talking about the concept of paid internships, he pointed out that the pay had to be commensurate with typical intern pay. So even if a rich alum were willing to pay a player $30K for a summer internship, that just can't happen.

And because of that, while I think the internship idea is nice, and could make the difference for some recruits between a program that has it and one that doesn't, it's not going to be the kind of game-changer that results in guys like Cournoyer not entering the portal.

Right - though I do think some finance summer internships can be in the range of 20-30k?

Actually I remember being surprised at how low a number Casey tossed out. If memory serves it was something like $6 or $7K. Nowhere near $20-$30, and definitely four figures.

That being said, it could be so early in the process that Casey may have just been throwing out a number that may not be accurate. It was a very informal statement.

I mean, again, I think I brought this up before - but BigLaw internships (so for graduate students in the legal profession at a soul-sucking job that I've crossed off my list on principle of survival) at market rate (Cravath scale, 10 weeks adjusted) are going for $40kish, from my understanding. Finance interning, let's say $25 an hour, 40 hours a week, 10 weeks, that's $10k. I think I brought this up before as well, but you can't pay a Cornell hockey player $100 an hour for interning and a non-hockey player $20 an hour interning at the same job.

Finance interns don't get paid by the hour, right? If BigLaw is $40K for the summer I'd be surprised if a job at one of the big banks is less than half of that.

[stereax]

I don't think the problem will be getting the money. I think the issue will be how to distribute the money in such a way that flies by Cornell/Ivy/NCAA rules.  NIL is not a pay-for-play bucket. (and yes I know many teams get around this - but ... Ivy)

Exactly this.

I don't think I am violating any expectation of privacy by saying that at one of the Coach's Club luncheons, when Casey was talking about the concept of paid internships, he pointed out that the pay had to be commensurate with typical intern pay. So even if a rich alum were willing to pay a player $30K for a summer internship, that just can't happen.

And because of that, while I think the internship idea is nice, and could make the difference for some recruits between a program that has it and one that doesn't, it's not going to be the kind of game-changer that results in guys like Cournoyer not entering the portal.

Right - though I do think some finance summer internships can be in the range of 20-30k?

Actually I remember being surprised at how low a number Casey tossed out. If memory serves it was something like $6 or $7K. Nowhere near $20-$30, and definitely four figures.

That being said, it could be so early in the process that Casey may have just been throwing out a number that may not be accurate. It was a very informal statement.

I mean, again, I think I brought this up before - but BigLaw internships (so for graduate students in the legal profession at a soul-sucking job that I've crossed off my list on principle of survival) at market rate (Cravath scale, 10 weeks adjusted) are going for $40kish, from my understanding. Finance interning, let's say $25 an hour, 40 hours a week, 10 weeks, that's $10k. I think I brought this up before as well, but you can't pay a Cornell hockey player $100 an hour for interning and a non-hockey player $20 an hour interning at the same job.

Finance interns don't get paid by the hour, right? If BigLaw is $40K for the summer I'd be surprised if a job at one of the big banks is less than half of that.

No idea, I'm just going off what I see on Google.

[BearLover]

I don't think the problem will be getting the money. I think the issue will be how to distribute the money in such a way that flies by Cornell/Ivy/NCAA rules.  NIL is not a pay-for-play bucket. (and yes I know many teams get around this - but ... Ivy)

Exactly this.

I don't think I am violating any expectation of privacy by saying that at one of the Coach's Club luncheons, when Casey was talking about the concept of paid internships, he pointed out that the pay had to be commensurate with typical intern pay. So even if a rich alum were willing to pay a player $30K for a summer internship, that just can't happen.

And because of that, while I think the internship idea is nice, and could make the difference for some recruits between a program that has it and one that doesn't, it's not going to be the kind of game-changer that results in guys like Cournoyer not entering the portal.

Right - though I do think some finance summer internships can be in the range of 20-30k?

Actually I remember being surprised at how low a number Casey tossed out. If memory serves it was something like $6 or $7K. Nowhere near $20-$30, and definitely four figures.

That being said, it could be so early in the process that Casey may have just been throwing out a number that may not be accurate. It was a very informal statement.

I mean, again, I think I brought this up before - but BigLaw internships (so for graduate students in the legal profession at a soul-sucking job that I've crossed off my list on principle of survival) at market rate (Cravath scale, 10 weeks adjusted) are going for $40kish, from my understanding. Finance interning, let's say $25 an hour, 40 hours a week, 10 weeks, that's $10k. I think I brought this up before as well, but you can't pay a Cornell hockey player $100 an hour for interning and a non-hockey player $20 an hour interning at the same job.

Finance interns don't get paid by the hour, right? If BigLaw is $40K for the summer I'd be surprised if a job at one of the big banks is less than half of that.

No idea, I'm just going off what I see on Google.

I would suspect a JP Morgan summer banking internship pays at least 25K, FWIW. Not saying those jobs are freely available to Cornell Hockey players though.

[BigRedLaw]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I went to a D3 school for undergrad.  There was surprising amount of excitement around club hockey due to a dedicated group of fans, but from what I heard that didn't survive after we graduated.  Generally speaking, the traditions and passionate crowds you want to see at college sporting events don't exist in most D3 sports.  Also, if you went to Cornell or another D1 school for undergrad, what connection would there be to a D3 school to get invested? 

[BearLover]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I'm not interested in arguing about the ethics of paying or not paying athletes, but we're all Cornell fans, so obviously we aren't going to randomly start following D-III sports. I root for Cornell because I went there and loved attending the hockey games (and occasionally other sports like lacrosse).  I would not have had that experience at a D-III school. If athletes getting paid ruins Cornell's ability to compete, then I (and sounds like most others here) will quit following and just do something else with my/our time. That's one of many costs to the end of amateurism even if you happen to think it's a fairer system overall.

[Trotsky]

I'd still be as much of a fan if we were pushed down into the perpetual underclass like we have been in football.   There would still be league drama against our long time rivals.  The games are the thing -- the 60 minute contests -- not the hedonic treadmill of accumulating stats and titles.

It has certainly been a fun cherry on top to get to the dance after a great season.  I would prefer that to continue.  I would miss it, but it wouldn't ruin the experience.  It would be on par with losing BU and BC in the Great Divorce.  It would not diminish my fandom at all.

As with everything else in life, the trophy case is cute and all, but at the end of the day... who gives a shit?  The game's the thing that I fell in love with.  The books and the classes were what mattered.  The degree's just a bit of paper.

[adamw]

I agree with all of these sentiments above, and I have argued over and over (not that anyone important cares or is listening to me) that all of the "athletes rights" advocates have no idea what hellscape they unleashed. Killing the goose that lays the golden egg comes is an obvious phrase that comes to mind.

The NCAA effed up by not having better arguments for itself. And "NCAA" really means -- all the school presidents in this country. By allowing the excesses to take place, it opened the door for those lawsuits, and here we are. It's not going back the other way.

For those who say they wouldn't mind rooting for a lesser team if there was continuity -- sure, but the "lesser" teams are going to have even less continuity, because their players will be jumping ship all the time (see: Atlantic Hockey)

For those that say the ideals would still work in D-III ... How is D-III any different than D-I in terms of athletes rights? They "work" the same amount of hours, under direct supervision. This fits the definition of an employee according to many. Should D-III have to pay their athletes minimum wage? That may happen one day. If so, goodbye D-III sports as well. Same goes for the Olympic D-I sports.

There are those who claim there is some needle that can be threaded where football/basketball gets paid like employees, and everyone else is not an employee. One sports lawyer wrote a 50 page document on how this would work, filled with holes. I tried to have this guy on our podcast, and he keeps saying no.  I don't believe such a needle exists.

Fans of "athletes rights" should've thought long and hard about the consequences. They ignored them all. They are greedy just like the colleges were in taking the big TV deals and paying coaches $10 million/year.  For the benefit of 1% (maybe) - they have screwed, in the long run, hundreds of thousands of student-athletes, and their fans.

If it's not college sports, a lot of people won't care - for all the reasons everyone articulated. It will survive for a while on the fact that some people just want to see their team win. But even then, it will be no different than pro sports, and many will say "well, if I want that, I'll just watch pro sports" and peel away. Which is why major league sports gets much higher attendance than minor league sports.  The attachment to the college, your alma mater, or some other close attachment (hello) is what makes it what it is.  Take it away, and there's nothing left.

The only hope, I suppose, is some sort of Congressional action that reins some of it in. But LOL. Even if it happened, the odds of it happening in such a way that solved things materially, are as close to nil as you can get given the dysfunctional nature of our Congress.

But at least if Armageddon is around the corner, I know I'll have a College Hockey News exit strategy.

[Beeeej]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I'm not interested in arguing about the ethics of paying or not paying athletes, but we're all Cornell fans, so obviously we aren't going to randomly start following D-III sports. I root for Cornell because I went there and loved attending the hockey games (and occasionally other sports like lacrosse).  I would not have had that experience at a D-III school. If athletes getting paid ruins Cornell's ability to compete, then I (and sounds like most others here) will quit following and just do something else with my/our time. That's one of many costs to the end of amateurism even if you happen to think it's a fairer system overall.

I dunno, man, one of my poker buddies went to Oswego and brought us to a game up there several years ago (Saturday night, following him joining us for the Friday night game at Lynah), and he and his fellow alums seemed just about as nuts for their program as we've been for ours. No scholarships, very few possibilities of going pro, but plenty of school spirit and love for the game. Maybe your experience would've been different, no idea - but there definitely isn't an inherent lack of devotion to hockey at D-III schools.

[BearLover]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I'm not interested in arguing about the ethics of paying or not paying athletes, but we're all Cornell fans, so obviously we aren't going to randomly start following D-III sports. I root for Cornell because I went there and loved attending the hockey games (and occasionally other sports like lacrosse).  I would not have had that experience at a D-III school. If athletes getting paid ruins Cornell's ability to compete, then I (and sounds like most others here) will quit following and just do something else with my/our time. That's one of many costs to the end of amateurism even if you happen to think it's a fairer system overall.

I dunno, man, one of my poker buddies went to Oswego and brought us to a game up there several years ago (Saturday night, following him joining us for the Friday night game at Lynah), and he and his fellow alums seemed just about as nuts for their program as we've been for ours. No scholarships, very few possibilities of going pro, but plenty of school spirit and love for the game. Maybe your experience would've been different, no idea - but there definitely isn't an inherent lack of devotion to hockey at D-III schools.

OK. Well, I didn't attend Oswego so I'm not going to randomly start rooting for them in any case. If Cornell is no longer competitive and our best players are leaving ever year, I'm out.

[BigRedLaw]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I'm not interested in arguing about the ethics of paying or not paying athletes, but we're all Cornell fans, so obviously we aren't going to randomly start following D-III sports. I root for Cornell because I went there and loved attending the hockey games (and occasionally other sports like lacrosse).  I would not have had that experience at a D-III school. If athletes getting paid ruins Cornell's ability to compete, then I (and sounds like most others here) will quit following and just do something else with my/our time. That's one of many costs to the end of amateurism even if you happen to think it's a fairer system overall.

I dunno, man, one of my poker buddies went to Oswego and brought us to a game up there several years ago (Saturday night, following him joining us for the Friday night game at Lynah), and he and his fellow alums seemed just about as nuts for their program as we've been for ours. No scholarships, very few possibilities of going pro, but plenty of school spirit and love for the game. Maybe your experience would've been different, no idea - but there definitely isn't an inherent lack of devotion to hockey at D-III schools.

Connection to the school side, you can't seriously assert that the fan passion for d3 sports is comparable to d1. 

There are outliers, but generally d3 sports are not well attended or supported by the student body.

[adamw]

my feeling about this, as always, is that i share a romantic attachment to college sports (and cornell sports in general) but that it remains improper to pretend that there is a place to regulate a maximum wage to preserve the ability to preserve the number of schools able to compete at the top level. college sports is now a multibillion dollar business. it is effectively a near-free minor league for professional sports. as such, the players should get paid a market wage. NIL is a jury-rigged solution to that conflict.

the place for romantic amateurism is in division iii, which has all of the virtues you seek but (apparently) none of the competition you want to watch.

I'm not interested in arguing about the ethics of paying or not paying athletes, but we're all Cornell fans, so obviously we aren't going to randomly start following D-III sports. I root for Cornell because I went there and loved attending the hockey games (and occasionally other sports like lacrosse).  I would not have had that experience at a D-III school. If athletes getting paid ruins Cornell's ability to compete, then I (and sounds like most others here) will quit following and just do something else with my/our time. That's one of many costs to the end of amateurism even if you happen to think it's a fairer system overall.

I dunno, man, one of my poker buddies went to Oswego and brought us to a game up there several years ago (Saturday night, following him joining us for the Friday night game at Lynah), and he and his fellow alums seemed just about as nuts for their program as we've been for ours. No scholarships, very few possibilities of going pro, but plenty of school spirit and love for the game. Maybe your experience would've been different, no idea - but there definitely isn't an inherent lack of devotion to hockey at D-III schools.

Connection to the school side, you can't seriously assert that the fan passion for d3 sports is comparable to d1. 

There are outliers, but generally d3 sports are not well attended or supported by the student body.

The 50,000 that show up every other year for Ithaca-Cortland football at Yankee Stadium would disagree.

I would say that it's well supported on a relative scale. No one is showing up for D-I Wisconsin field hockey either (sorry Jane). Most D-III schools are smaller in the first place.

[BearLover]

I think people are missing the fact that Cornell Hockey got popular in the first place because they were really good.

[underskill]

https://x.com/CollegePuckNXT/status/2044544090298081737

New recruit from WHL

[stereax]

as someone who's watched high school hockey in Ithaca where none of the players have any chance of going pro: the environment in a hockey game, in many cases, is what you make it. the fun in the game is what you make of it. there are ACHA programs that are super fun too - the aptly named South Carolina Gamecocks come to mind here!

I kinda just dislike the idea that "oh, if it's Div III, it's not worth watching". my core philosophy is that hockey is hockey, and hockey is fun no matter what. I'm not saying "let's all choose a DIII school to follow", and I certainly don't mean to discount the fact that the reason most of us enjoy Cornell hockey is because either we went to Cornell or have other ties to Cornell, but... don't paint with a broad brush, either.

[stereax]

https://x.com/CollegePuckNXT/status/2044544090298081737

New recruit from WHL

Does that say 49 points in 27 games???