Recruits 2024 and Beyond

[Swampy]

With no more games to focus on :`-( here's a late season update for our listed recruits. We have plenty of talent in the pipeline:

I have never seen us line up the talent at center that we seem to have and are bringing in. I have to assume some of those guys are going to be converted to wing, but my god.

IIRC, Dan Lodboa was a forward when he came to Cornell, but Ned (aka "God" ) already had a few good forwards. So, he converted Dan to play as a D. Ned would later say Dan was the best hockey player he'd ever coached.

So, if history were to repeat itself, I'd take it! ::cheer::

I recently read a book called "They Did Everything But Win" about the Emile Francis Rangers of the 60's and 70's. There were some unflattering passages about Ned in the book; as I've heard elsewhere over the years, apparently his Red Wings players largely detested him and his "rah rah" college style approach. Certainly not the first or last time a college coach didn't work out in the pros.

Question of the Day: Suppose Schafer was to coach for another seven years here, during which time he would win 2 NC's, with the second one being only the second time in NC$$ history that a Division I ice hockey team would go undefeated & untied. After that, he would spend a season as a NHL coach, during which time the pro players would reject him because of his "rah rah" college style.* Then, he would serve three years as the GM of the pro team, after which he would return to coaching college hockey at another ECAC school (not Harvard). There, before he retired, he would win his third NC.

Would you reject this scenario or welcome it?

*I haven't read "They Did Everything But Win," so I don't know if there's more criticism of Harkness. But here's how Wikipedia describes that brief cup of coffee as a NHL coach: "A veteran and aging Detroit roster had resisted adapting to Harkness's more progressive methods.[5] Things that are commonplace and obvious today, such as no cigar smoking in the locker room between periods and shorter ice shifts caused a mutiny by the veteran players.[5]"

The reference is to: Allen, Kevin; Duff, Bob (Oct 15, 2014). 100 Things Red Wings Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die. Triumph Books. ISBN 9781623689827

[BearLover]

With no more games to focus on :`-( here's a late season update for our listed recruits. We have plenty of talent in the pipeline:

I have never seen us line up the talent at center that we seem to have and are bringing in. I have to assume some of those guys are going to be converted to wing, but my god.

IIRC, Dan Lodboa was a forward when he came to Cornell, but Ned (aka "God" ) already had a few good forwards. So, he converted Dan to play as a D. Ned would later say Dan was the best hockey player he'd ever coached.

So, if history were to repeat itself, I'd take it! ::cheer::

I recently read a book called "They Did Everything But Win" about the Emile Francis Rangers of the 60's and 70's. There were some unflattering passages about Ned in the book; as I've heard elsewhere over the years, apparently his Red Wings players largely detested him and his "rah rah" college style approach. Certainly not the first or last time a college coach didn't work out in the pros.

Question of the Day: Suppose Schafer was to coach for another seven years here, during which time he would win 2 NC's, with the second one being only the second time in NC$$ history that a Division I ice hockey team would go undefeated & untied. After that, he would spend a season as a NHL coach, during which time the pro players would reject him because of his "rah rah" college style.* Then, he would serve three years as the GM of the pro team, after which he would return to coaching college hockey at another ECAC school (not Harvard). There, before he retired, he would win his third NC.

Would you reject this scenario or welcome it?

[Trotsky]

1 Samuel 26:9

[ugarte]

With no more games to focus on :`-( here's a late season update for our listed recruits. We have plenty of talent in the pipeline:

I have never seen us line up the talent at center that we seem to have and are bringing in. I have to assume some of those guys are going to be converted to wing, but my god.

IIRC, Dan Lodboa was a forward when he came to Cornell, but Ned (aka "God" ) already had a few good forwards. So, he converted Dan to play as a D. Ned would later say Dan was the best hockey player he'd ever coached.

So, if history were to repeat itself, I'd take it! ::cheer::

I recently read a book called "They Did Everything But Win" about the Emile Francis Rangers of the 60's and 70's. There were some unflattering passages about Ned in the book; as I've heard elsewhere over the years, apparently his Red Wings players largely detested him and his "rah rah" college style approach. Certainly not the first or last time a college coach didn't work out in the pros.

Question of the Day: Suppose Schafer was to coach for another seven years here, during which time he would win 2 NC's, with the second one being only the second time in NC$$ history that a Division I ice hockey team would go undefeated & untied. After that ... he would return to coaching college hockey at another ECAC school (not Harvard). There, before he retired, he would win his third NC.

Would you reject this scenario or welcome it?

no! do not throw me into the briar patch!

[jkahn]

With no more games to focus on :`-( here's a late season update for our listed recruits. We have plenty of talent in the pipeline:

I have never seen us line up the talent at center that we seem to have and are bringing in. I have to assume some of those guys are going to be converted to wing, but my god.

IIRC, Dan Lodboa was a forward when he came to Cornell, but Ned (aka "God" ) already had a few good forwards. So, he converted Dan to play as a D. Ned would later say Dan was the best hockey player he'd ever coached.

So, if history were to repeat itself, I'd take it! ::cheer::

I recently read a book called "They Did Everything But Win" about the Emile Francis Rangers of the 60's and 70's. There were some unflattering passages about Ned in the book; as I've heard elsewhere over the years, apparently his Red Wings players largely detested him and his "rah rah" college style approach. Certainly not the first or last time a college coach didn't work out in the pros.

Question of the Day: Suppose Schafer was to coach for another seven years here, during which time he would win 2 NC's, with the second one being only the second time in NC$$ history that a Division I ice hockey team would go undefeated & untied. After that, he would spend a season as a NHL coach, during which time the pro players would reject him because of his "rah rah" college style.* Then, he would serve three years as the GM of the pro team, after which he would return to coaching college hockey at another ECAC school (not Harvard). There, before he retired, he would win his third NC.

Would you reject this scenario or welcome it?

*I haven't read "They Did Everything But Win," so I don't know if there's more criticism of Harkness. But here's how Wikipedia describes that brief cup of coffee as a NHL coach: "A veteran and aging Detroit roster had resisted adapting to Harkness's more progressive methods.[5] Things that are commonplace and obvious today, such as no cigar smoking in the locker room between periods and shorter ice shifts caused a mutiny by the veteran players.[5]"

The reference is to: Allen, Kevin; Duff, Bob (Oct 15, 2014). 100 Things Red Wings Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die. Triumph Books. ISBN 9781623689827

When we played at Michigan State to open the '19-'20 season, I found a copy of Kevin Allen's book in the bookstore across the street from campus.  The chapter on Ned was entitled "Ned Harkness was Ahead of His Time" or something very similar.  Kevin Allen was the lead hockey writer for USA Today for decades.  A few years before his book came out, I had actually posted something on this website about the cigar smoking issue while Ned coached at Detroit (Maybe Kevin Allen reads elynah).

[adamw]

I just got scooped...by scoop! Seriously, I was in the middle of typing out a very similar post. I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure how it would work regarding the goalie situation—will the Cornell coaches hold one of them back in juniors? Frankly, whoever comes next year will just be waiting behind Shane anyway, so I don't think it makes much sense from either Cornell's or Katz's/Roest's perspective for them to both matriculate next year.

Schafer goes with a clear #1 in net during the season, but he has also shown flexibility to challenge him and replace him if necessary:

1997: Experimented through the season with Pelletier, settled on Elliott
2000: Burt beat out Underhill who then re-beat out Burt in arguably the only season-long fight
2002: Infamously started with Underhill before figuring out Leneveu was a deity
2007: Started with Davenport, changed to Scrivens
2011: Ran a straight-up Iles-Garman rotation all year
2022: started with McDonald-Howe, changed to Shane.

Is that really true about 2002? And not sure if by 2002 you mean 2001-02 or 2002-03 ... the former, Leneveu got more PT as the season went on, but Underhill started the 2002 ECAC final (and allowed a not great GWG) and the NCAAs. In 2002-03 - Underhill was gone.

[Chris '03]

I just got scooped...by scoop! Seriously, I was in the middle of typing out a very similar post. I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure how it would work regarding the goalie situation—will the Cornell coaches hold one of them back in juniors? Frankly, whoever comes next year will just be waiting behind Shane anyway, so I don't think it makes much sense from either Cornell's or Katz's/Roest's perspective for them to both matriculate next year.

Schafer goes with a clear #1 in net during the season, but he has also shown flexibility to challenge him and replace him if necessary:

1997: Experimented through the season with Pelletier, settled on Elliott
2000: Burt beat out Underhill who then re-beat out Burt in arguably the only season-long fight
2002: Infamously started with Underhill before figuring out Leneveu was a deity
2007: Started with Davenport, changed to Scrivens
2011: Ran a straight-up Iles-Garman rotation all year
2022: started with McDonald-Howe, changed to Shane.

Is that really true about 2002? And not sure if by 2002 you mean 2001-02 or 2002-03 ... the former, Leneveu got more PT as the season went on, but Underhill started the 2002 ECAC final (and allowed a not great GWG) and the NCAAs. In 2002-03 - Underhill was gone.

I recall 2002 being platoon almost all year with the exception of a couple weeks underhill was hurt?

[adamw]

I just got scooped...by scoop! Seriously, I was in the middle of typing out a very similar post. I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure how it would work regarding the goalie situation—will the Cornell coaches hold one of them back in juniors? Frankly, whoever comes next year will just be waiting behind Shane anyway, so I don't think it makes much sense from either Cornell's or Katz's/Roest's perspective for them to both matriculate next year.

Schafer goes with a clear #1 in net during the season, but he has also shown flexibility to challenge him and replace him if necessary:

1997: Experimented through the season with Pelletier, settled on Elliott
2000: Burt beat out Underhill who then re-beat out Burt in arguably the only season-long fight
2002: Infamously started with Underhill before figuring out Leneveu was a deity
2007: Started with Davenport, changed to Scrivens
2011: Ran a straight-up Iles-Garman rotation all year
2022: started with McDonald-Howe, changed to Shane.

Is that really true about 2002? And not sure if by 2002 you mean 2001-02 or 2002-03 ... the former, Leneveu got more PT as the season went on, but Underhill started the 2002 ECAC final (and allowed a not great GWG) and the NCAAs. In 2002-03 - Underhill was gone.

I recall 2002 being platoon almost all year with the exception of a couple weeks underhill was hurt?

Underhill played 21 games, Leneveu 14

https://www.collegehockeynews.com/stats/team/Cornell/18/overall,20012002

[Give My Regards]

I just got scooped...by scoop! Seriously, I was in the middle of typing out a very similar post. I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure how it would work regarding the goalie situation—will the Cornell coaches hold one of them back in juniors? Frankly, whoever comes next year will just be waiting behind Shane anyway, so I don't think it makes much sense from either Cornell's or Katz's/Roest's perspective for them to both matriculate next year.

Schafer goes with a clear #1 in net during the season, but he has also shown flexibility to challenge him and replace him if necessary:

1997: Experimented through the season with Pelletier, settled on Elliott
2000: Burt beat out Underhill who then re-beat out Burt in arguably the only season-long fight
2002: Infamously started with Underhill before figuring out Leneveu was a deity
2007: Started with Davenport, changed to Scrivens
2011: Ran a straight-up Iles-Garman rotation all year
2022: started with McDonald-Howe, changed to Shane.

Is that really true about 2002? And not sure if by 2002 you mean 2001-02 or 2002-03 ... the former, Leneveu got more PT as the season went on, but Underhill started the 2002 ECAC final (and allowed a not great GWG) and the NCAAs. In 2002-03 - Underhill was gone.

I recall 2002 being platoon almost all year with the exception of a couple weeks underhill was hurt?

I recall the same, at least for the regular season; Underhill got all the postseason starts.  I also don't think the coaches had any trouble figuring out what they had with Leneveu, as he wound up splitting time with Underhill despite Underhill's 2000-01 season in which he became the first Big Red goaltender to post a sub-2.00 GAA since Cropper in 1970.

[Trotsky]

I recall the same, at least for the regular season; Underhill got all the postseason starts.  I also don't think the coaches had any trouble figuring out what they had with Leneveu, as he wound up splitting time with Underhill despite Underhill's 2000-01 season in which he became the first Big Red goaltender to post a sub-2.00 GAA since Cropper in 1970.

Underhill starts (game number):

2
3
4
5

At this point, Underhill has played 4 straight games, including Lynah East, which he loses 3-4 in overtime.

7
9
11
12
14
16
18
20
22
24
27

11 starts in 22 games during the middle of the season, a pure rotation

29
30
31
32
33
34
35

Final 7 games are all Underhill, including the full post-season. Note that Underhill breaks the rotation with games of GA 1, 1, 2, 0.

[Pghas]

My understanding is that Wishart is headed to play at  Middlebury.

Such a difficult thing to predict who will develop and how.  Guys who lit it up in juniors sometimes get to college and are a little fried and maybe don't push as much as they once did.  Or maybe they hit a ceiling while other kids really do not.  I have a son who is a good player and what they tell you is that as you move up you have to improve and dominate at every level that you reach.  That's hard to do! I think its safe to say that the USHL is largely D1 commits and that provides the highest level of competition for players to develop so that's probably the best place to play if you're a D1 commit.  So expect a kid like Charlie Major to come in and contribute immediately a la Ryan Walsh.  Sean Donaldson dominated the BCHL which is different.  Jacob Kraft didnt dominate but put up great numbers for Cedar Rapids in the USHL.  DeGiulian was drafted by the Lincoln Stars and my understanding is he will play juniors for a least a year.

As my son's coach put it this year, you're not playing college hockey until you're on the ice playing college hockey!

[BearLover]

My understanding is that Wishart is headed to play at  Middlebury.

Such a difficult thing to predict who will develop and how.  Guys who lit it up in juniors sometimes get to college and are a little fried and maybe don't push as much as they once did.  Or maybe they hit a ceiling while other kids really do not.  I have a son who is a good player and what they tell you is that as you move up you have to improve and dominate at every level that you reach.  That's hard to do! I think its safe to say that the USHL is largely D1 commits and that provides the highest level of competition for players to develop so that's probably the best place to play if you're a D1 commit.  So expect a kid like Charlie Major to come in and contribute immediately a la Ryan Walsh.  Sean Donaldson dominated the BCHL which is different.  Jacob Kraft didnt dominate but put up great numbers for Cedar Rapids in the USHL.  DeGiulian was drafted by the Lincoln Stars and my understanding is he will play juniors for a least a year.

As my son's coach put it this year, you're not playing college hockey until you're on the ice playing college hockey!

Well said. I am not involved with junior hockey, but from following recruiting, college success is certainly difficult to predict. We've even seen players be drafted by NHL teams and struggle to make Cornell's lineup (eg. Cairns, Tschantz, Song) or barely produce. I agree with you that putting up a lot of points in the USHL is the surest sign of college success. But still far from guaranteed. Dwyer Tschantz put up really good numbers in the USHL, for example. In his case I think he suffered some injuries, but I'm pretty sure he was a healthy scratch a lot too.

The Donaldson situation seems particularly aberrational. Seventh in the BCHL in points/4th in goals, but can't crack the lineup as a sophomore. Did he plateau once he got to college? Is he unreliable on defense? Does Cornell have a glut of left shot forwards? Looking purely at the junior hockey numbers of the forwards in last year's freshman class, it would have been impossible to tell that Bancroft (insane numbers in the OJHL, which is weaker than the BCHL) would be the best performer, then DeSantis (very good numbers in the USHL), then Wallace (good numbers in the USHL), then Donaldson (fantastic numbers in the BCHL). Obviously, hockey (and especially Cornell Hockey) is way more than just offensive numbers—maybe that's the point.

One thing notable about all of this is that Donaldson and Keopple and the other guys not seeing the ice haven't entered the transfer portal. At other programs, players like them would have bolted  the minute the season ended (or sooner). It says a lot about how Schafer runs the team that these guys are sticking with it.

[marty]

My understanding is that Wishart is headed to play at  Middlebury.

Such a difficult thing to predict who will develop and how.  Guys who lit it up in juniors sometimes get to college and are a little fried and maybe don't push as much as they once did.  Or maybe they hit a ceiling while other kids really do not.  I have a son who is a good player and what they tell you is that as you move up you have to improve and dominate at every level that you reach.  That's hard to do! I think its safe to say that the USHL is largely D1 commits and that provides the highest level of competition for players to develop so that's probably the best place to play if you're a D1 commit.  So expect a kid like Charlie Major to come in and contribute immediately a la Ryan Walsh.  Sean Donaldson dominated the BCHL which is different.  Jacob Kraft didnt dominate but put up great numbers for Cedar Rapids in the USHL.  DeGiulian was drafted by the Lincoln Stars and my understanding is he will play juniors for a least a year.

As my son's coach put it this year, you're not playing college hockey until you're on the ice playing college hockey!

Well said. I am not involved with junior hockey, but from following recruiting, college success is certainly difficult to predict. We've even seen players be drafted by NHL teams and struggle to make Cornell's lineup (eg. Cairns, Tschantz, Song) or barely produce. I agree with you that putting up a lot of points in the USHL is the surest sign of college success. But still far from guaranteed. Dwyer Tschantz put up really good numbers in the USHL, for example. In his case I think he suffered some injuries, but I'm pretty sure he was a healthy scratch a lot too.

The Donaldson situation seems particularly aberrational. Seventh in the BCHL in points/4th in goals, but can't crack the lineup as a sophomore. Did he plateau once he got to college? Is he unreliable on defense? Does Cornell have a glut of left shot forwards? Looking purely at the junior hockey numbers of the forwards in last year's freshman class, it would have been impossible to tell that Bancroft (insane numbers in the OJHL, which is weaker than the BCHL) would be the best performer, then DeSantis (very good numbers in the USHL), then Wallace (good numbers in the USHL), then Donaldson (fantastic numbers in the BCHL). Obviously, hockey (and especially Cornell Hockey) is way more than just offensive numbers—maybe that's the point.

One thing notable about all of this is that Donaldson and Keopple and the other guys not seeing the ice haven't entered the transfer portal. At other programs, players like them would have bolted  the minute the season ended (or sooner). It says a lot about how Schafer runs the team that these guys are sticking with it.

It says a lot about the players too.  Think of a second string wrestler who is essentially the practice partner for a first stringer.  John Irving, the author, talks about not being able to complete 4 years at Pitt (I think it was Pitt) as a practice partner.  And he thinks those that can do that have character that many do not.

[arugula]

My understanding is that Wishart is headed to play at  Middlebury.

Such a difficult thing to predict who will develop and how.  Guys who lit it up in juniors sometimes get to college and are a little fried and maybe don't push as much as they once did.  Or maybe they hit a ceiling while other kids really do not.  I have a son who is a good player and what they tell you is that as you move up you have to improve and dominate at every level that you reach.  That's hard to do! I think its safe to say that the USHL is largely D1 commits and that provides the highest level of competition for players to develop so that's probably the best place to play if you're a D1 commit.  So expect a kid like Charlie Major to come in and contribute immediately a la Ryan Walsh.  Sean Donaldson dominated the BCHL which is different.  Jacob Kraft didnt dominate but put up great numbers for Cedar Rapids in the USHL.  DeGiulian was drafted by the Lincoln Stars and my understanding is he will play juniors for a least a year.

As my son's coach put it this year, you're not playing college hockey until you're on the ice playing college hockey!

Well said. I am not involved with junior hockey, but from following recruiting, college success is certainly difficult to predict. We've even seen players be drafted by NHL teams and struggle to make Cornell's lineup (eg. Cairns, Tschantz, Song) or barely produce. I agree with you that putting up a lot of points in the USHL is the surest sign of college success. But still far from guaranteed. Dwyer Tschantz put up really good numbers in the USHL, for example. In his case I think he suffered some injuries, but I'm pretty sure he was a healthy scratch a lot too.

The Donaldson situation seems particularly aberrational. Seventh in the BCHL in points/4th in goals, but can't crack the lineup as a sophomore. Did he plateau once he got to college? Is he unreliable on defense? Does Cornell have a glut of left shot forwards? Looking purely at the junior hockey numbers of the forwards in last year's freshman class, it would have been impossible to tell that Bancroft (insane numbers in the OJHL, which is weaker than the BCHL) would be the best performer, then DeSantis (very good numbers in the USHL), then Wallace (good numbers in the USHL), then Donaldson (fantastic numbers in the BCHL). Obviously, hockey (and especially Cornell Hockey) is way more than just offensive numbers—maybe that's the point.

One thing notable about all of this is that Donaldson and Keopple and the other guys not seeing the ice haven't entered the transfer portal. At other programs, players like them would have bolted  the minute the season ended (or sooner). It says a lot about how Schafer runs the team that these guys are sticking with it.

It says a lot about the players too.  Think of a second string wrestler who is essentially the practice partner for a first stringer.  John Irving, the author, talks about not being able to complete 4 years at Pitt (I think it was Pitt) as a practice partner.  And he thinks those that can do that have character that many do not.

Is it naive of me to say that maybe these kids also value their education and don't expect to play in the NHL and recognize that a Cornell degree has a lifetime value that maybe other degrees do not.

[Pghas]

My understanding is that Wishart is headed to play at  Middlebury.

Such a difficult thing to predict who will develop and how.  Guys who lit it up in juniors sometimes get to college and are a little fried and maybe don't push as much as they once did.  Or maybe they hit a ceiling while other kids really do not.  I have a son who is a good player and what they tell you is that as you move up you have to improve and dominate at every level that you reach.  That's hard to do! I think its safe to say that the USHL is largely D1 commits and that provides the highest level of competition for players to develop so that's probably the best place to play if you're a D1 commit.  So expect a kid like Charlie Major to come in and contribute immediately a la Ryan Walsh.  Sean Donaldson dominated the BCHL which is different.  Jacob Kraft didnt dominate but put up great numbers for Cedar Rapids in the USHL.  DeGiulian was drafted by the Lincoln Stars and my understanding is he will play juniors for a least a year.

As my son's coach put it this year, you're not playing college hockey until you're on the ice playing college hockey!

Well said. I am not involved with junior hockey, but from following recruiting, college success is certainly difficult to predict. We've even seen players be drafted by NHL teams and struggle to make Cornell's lineup (eg. Cairns, Tschantz, Song) or barely produce. I agree with you that putting up a lot of points in the USHL is the surest sign of college success. But still far from guaranteed. Dwyer Tschantz put up really good numbers in the USHL, for example. In his case I think he suffered some injuries, but I'm pretty sure he was a healthy scratch a lot too.

The Donaldson situation seems particularly aberrational. Seventh in the BCHL in points/4th in goals, but can't crack the lineup as a sophomore. Did he plateau once he got to college? Is he unreliable on defense? Does Cornell have a glut of left shot forwards? Looking purely at the junior hockey numbers of the forwards in last year's freshman class, it would have been impossible to tell that Bancroft (insane numbers in the OJHL, which is weaker than the BCHL) would be the best performer, then DeSantis (very good numbers in the USHL), then Wallace (good numbers in the USHL), then Donaldson (fantastic numbers in the BCHL). Obviously, hockey (and especially Cornell Hockey) is way more than just offensive numbers—maybe that's the point.

One thing notable about all of this is that Donaldson and Keopple and the other guys not seeing the ice haven't entered the transfer portal. At other programs, players like them would have bolted  the minute the season ended (or sooner). It says a lot about how Schafer runs the team that these guys are sticking with it.

It says a lot about the players too.  Think of a second string wrestler who is essentially the practice partner for a first stringer.  John Irving, the author, talks about not being able to complete 4 years at Pitt (I think it was Pitt) as a practice partner.  And he thinks those that can do that have character that many do not.

I think there is a sense of accomplishment for a player at just getting to a certain level.  If you have put in the work and effort to make it to playing in prep school, or in college, or at Cornell, how much more is there?  That's not to say these kids dont want to play or care, but to many of them, academics may be the more important part of this picture (and should be).  They aren't going to the NHL, they play varsity hockey at Cornell, and maybe they dont get into as many games as they'd like.  Just being part of that team, at that level, where you all consider every guy just as important as the next, and going to a great school - who can blame a kid for not wanting to transfer to Union or Clarkson or even Yale or Brown?  At some point it is not just the single-minded purposeness of climbing the hockey ladder, its also about your life experience and path.