Nieuwendyk

[CUlater]

Once the hitter is announced, it counts as a plate appearance.  Whether he actually sees a pitch is not relevant.

I'm interested to know if the rule that Adam described applies for a DH.  In other words, until he actually gets announced as the hitter, has the DH "appeared" in the game?  Based on Adam's wording, the answer seems to be "no" but you can make the argument that since the DH is the designated hitter for the pitcher's spot, once the pitcher appears on the field, the DH is considered to have "appeared" in the game.

[KeithK]

The double pinch-hit situation can't be a plate appearance in the sense of on-base-percentage calculations, since I'm pretty sure that's defined in terms of results.  It just makes no sense that being pinch hit for should lower your OBP.  But it must be a different rule for purposes of games played.

Can you pinch hit for a batter in the middle of an at bat if the opposing team changes pitchers?

I don't think the DH counts as having appeared until he gets a plate appearance.  I think it is true that a player is not considered in the game until he is announced.  Although going to the plate umpire and telling him probably counts.

[ugarte]

Keith K '93 wrote:
Can you pinch hit for a batter in the middle of an at bat if the opposing team changes pitchers?

Yes, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.  A pitcher has to face a single batter or pitch 1/3 of an inning (i.e., if a runner is caught stealing on the first pitch, the pitcher can be replaced).

[DeltaOne81]

Keep in mind plate appearence != (that's 'doesn't equal' for you non-geeks) at-bar. Only at-bats (not walks, etc) are used as the denominator for batting average.

[ugarte]

DeltaOne81 '03 wrote:

Keep in mind plate appearence != (that's 'doesn't equal' for you non-geeks) at-bar. Only at-bats (not walks, etc) are used as the denominator for batting average.

KeithK said "OBP."  OBP != BA -- and is measured by PA, not AB.  I suspect the answer to Keith's question is that it is possible to have a GP without a PA.



Post Edited (05-22-03 18:15)

[Greg Berge]

I have heard broadcasters faithfully repeat that a pitcher must face at least one hitter to conclusion before being pulled, short of injury.  I've also heard broadcasters repeat complete nonsense, but there seems to be unanimity on this.



Post Edited (05-22-03 18:33)

[jtwcornell91]

Actually, the DH announced in the lineup is required to bat at least once, unless he gets injured.  This rule was allegedly adopted to counter Earl Weaver's practice of listing the previous day's starting pitcher as the DH and then pinch-hitting for him in his first at-bat, thus concealing the identity of he DH.

[Greg Berge]

Would Weaver's strategy be all that more effective than a visiting team announcing the previous SP in a platoon position in the first three slots in the lineup, to be pinch hit for by the preferred player when that slot was reached?

I think I'd rather have the SP available for emergency PR (or even OF) duty in case of an extra inning game,

[ugarte]

Greg wrote:

I have heard broadcasters faithfully repeat that a pitcher must face at least one hitter to conclusion before being pulled, short of injury. I've also heard broadcasters repeat complete nonsense, but there seems to be unanimity on this.

Well, it ain't exactly true. If a pitcher comes in with 2 outs and picks off a runner, he doesn't have to start the next inning.  But here is the rule:

8.06
A professional league shall adopt the following rule pertaining to the visit of the manager or coach to the pitcher: (a) This rule limits the number of trips a manager or coach may make to any one pitcher in any one inning; (b) A second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning will cause this pitcher's automatic removal; (c) The manager or coach is prohibited from making a second visit to the mound while the same batter is at bat, but (d) if a pinch hitter is substituted for this batter, the manager or coach may make a second visit to the mound, but must remove the pitcher. . . .  In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound and then returns the second time to the mound in the same inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or gets on base. After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. . . .

So I was wrong also - there doesn't appear to be an exception for a CS for the 1st or 2d out (and it isn't in the ellipses), so the pitcher would have to face a full batter - unless the other team sends up a pinch hitter (so now I don't know who was right).

[DeltaOne81]

I'm not so sure that that's 100% conclusive... it only says the manager may not make two trips... he is free however to remove the pitcher on his first trip (right???). Having read the whole of rule 8 ("The pitcher") on MLB's site, I see nothing mentioning anything about having to pitch to a batter. Of course, I can't seem to find a section of the rulebook about player substitutions in general, which may have the answer.

Edit: Now it's conclusive :-)
3.05
(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire in chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire in chief, incapacitates him from pitching. (b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire in chief's judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher. (c) If an improper substitution is made for the pitcher, the umpire shall direct the proper pitcher to return to the game until the provisions of this rule are fulfilled. If the improper pitcher is permitted to pitch, any play that results is legal. The improper pitcher becomes the proper pitcher as soon as he makes his first pitch to the batter, or as soon as any runner is put out. If a manager attempts to remove a pitcher in violation of Rule 3.05 (c) the umpire shall notify the manager of the offending club that it cannot be done. If, by chance, the umpire in chief has, through oversight, announced the incoming improper pitcher, he should still correct the situation before the improper pitcher pitches. Once the improper pitcher delivers a pitch he becomes the proper pitcher.



Post Edited (05-22-03 23:20)

[adamw]

Regarding the rule for keeping a streak alive ... Whether anyone believes it makes sense or not, it's the rule.  But, if you insist, don't take my word for it:

GUIDELINES FOR CUMULATIVE PERFORMANCE RECORDS
10.24

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_official_scorer.jsp

It's the last item of the entire rule book (except, I suppose, the index).

It may not make sense semantically -- the pinch hitter being pinch hit for being credited with a game played, but not extending the games played streak -- but it does make sense logically.

Rule books are a wonderful thing.

[adamw]

BRA ... you were correct.  A pitcher must pitch to a full batter, or retire the side (caught stealing, pickoff, etc...)

Anyone care to take a crack at the scoring rules for who gets credited with strikeout/walk when a batter/pitcher is replaced in mid at-bat? Consider it a quiz.

[cbuckser]

If a batter or pitcher is replaced in the middle of the at bat, the replacement gets credited for a walk if the change occurred prior to the second ball.  Otherwise, the original batter or pitcher gets credited with the walk.  If the change occurred before the second strike, then the replacement gets credited for the strikeout.  Otherwise, the departing batter or pitcher gets credited with the strikeout.

[gtsully]

big red apple wrote:

Well, it ain't exactly true. If a pitcher comes in with 2 outs and picks off a runner, he doesn't have to start the next inning.

This actually happened a few weeks ago - a Baltimore pitcher (I forget who, but I think it was BJ Ryan) came in in a late inning with two outs and a man on first, and picked the guy off without throwing a pitch.  The Orioles then took the lead for good in the bottom of the inning before he was replaced in the following inning, so he actually was credited with a win without throwing a single pitch.

Now back to the eHoy Forum... :-P

[Greg Berge]

BTW I wasn't challenging your rule above, I was accepting it and then opining that MLB is being inconsistent.  You, OTOH, are being thorough -- a Good thing.

[q]Anyone care to take a crack at the scoring rules for who gets credited with strikeout/walk when a batter/pitcher is replaced in mid at-bat? Consider it a quiz.[/q]

I'll take a crack at it based on about 1500 Met games listened to.  Consider it the "Ralph Kiner and for that who really knows?" guess. ;-)

If pitcher 1 has thrown at least one ball to the batter, then pitcher 1 gets credit if the batter walks.  Else, pitcher 2 gets credit for the result.

If batter 1 has had at least 1 strike against him, then batter 1 gets credit if batter 2 strikes out.  Else batter 2 gets credit for the result.

Urban (er, diamond) legend, but a guess.