Nieuwendyk

[Rich Stamboulian]

Didnt Smoltz start with the Tigers?

It seems like spending an entire career with one team was more common before free agency but if James showed that it wasn't, i'd love to read his book where he demonstrates that.

[Greg Berge]

[q]So it's not like Ripken was the last of the one-team career players as so many people like to rant about. Spending an entire career with one team wasn't even that common in the days before Free Agency,[/q]

This was James' main point in several of his excellent articles from the unfortunately discontinued BJSA's of the late 80's and early 90's.  If you've never read these, they are at the top of intelligent sports analysis.  From time to time he got silly with numbers wihin numbers, but for the most part he used the annual teams reviews to highlight an aspect of the game, review the evidence (generally going back many years), and draw conclusions.  He demolished many myths that are still mindlessly repeated by "common sense" types like Joe Morgan and Harold Reynolds on ESPN.

[ugarte]

Rich Stamboulian wrote:

Didnt Smoltz start with the Tigers?

That is what I thought at first also, since he was acquired for Doyle Alexander from the Tigers way back when.  But upon further review, it appears that Smolz was a AAA pitcher in the Tigers organization that the Braves stuck right onto the major league roster after they got him.

See: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4232&context=pitching

[gtsully]

Jason wrote:

I am a Yankees fan, and I really in fact could care not care less about the Red Sox, nor the Mets for that matter. The problem I have with the Red Sox is its fans, not the players. I enjoy watching the team play, in fact. My team beats the Red Sox every year, so why should I dislike them any more than anyone else?
 At least they give the Yankees a challenge

Most Sox fans aren't that bad - there are some idiots who continue to try to start "Yankees suck!" chants at Texas and Tampa Bay games who, sadly, get the majority of the attention (most of them are kids from BC and BU).  Trust me, though, there are enough who understand the game and aren't complete morons, and who could carry on sophisticated conversations like we usually have here.  The Yankees are cheered on by a similar proportion of nitwits, in my estimation.

There's probably not the same venom from Yankee fans towards the Red Sox than vice versa, but nobody can tell me that they just don't care about the Red Sox, because it's not true.  They love seeing the Yanks stick it to the Sox, in season or in trade/free agency situations like this winter, and they pack the park when the Sox are in town, which is more than they can say for every other opponent from outside the city.

As for JTW's take on respecting the rivalry, I respect the Yankees and the rivalry (although it took me a little while to develop it genuinely), but there is just so much to hate about the team as well, as there is with Harvard.  I just think there's more to hate about the Yanks than just about any other team out there (most of which is Steinbrenner's doing), in any sport, and it's hard to look past that, especially when you've grown up hearing and thinking that the Yankees are evil personified (which, of course, they are). :-P

[rhovorka]

Sully '00 wrote:
Most Sox fans aren't that bad - there are some idiots who continue to try to start "Yankees suck!" chants at Texas and Tampa Bay games who, sadly, get the majority of the attention

...and at Patriots parades, and at New Years Eve, and on the T...  ::rolleyes::

[Q](most of them are kids from BC and BU).  Trust me, though, there are enough who understand the game and aren't complete morons, and who could carry on sophisticated conversations like we usually have here.  The Yankees are cheered on by a similar proportion of nitwits, in my estimation.[/Q]

Agree.  I've lived at both sides of the country (and experienced some midwest baseball), and the "good" Yankee and Red Sox fans are by far the most knowlegable fans you'll ever meet.  They are what makes The Rivalry so compelling.  Problem is that the "bad" Yankee and Red Sox fans are by far the most annoying and thuggery-driven fans you'll ever wish you didn't see.  They are what makes The Rivalry so aggrivating.

Just like any college hockey fan base, there are enough good and bad fans to make it stupid to generalize one way or another.

[Greg Berge]

[q]Most Sox fans aren't that bad - there are some idiots who continue to try to start "Yankees suck!" chants at Texas and Tampa Bay games who, sadly, get the majority of the attention (most of them are kids from BC and BU). Trust me, though, there are enough who understand the game and aren't complete morons, and who could carry on sophisticated conversations like we usually have here. The Yankees are cheered on by a similar proportion of nitwits, in my estimation.
[/q]

I'm always tempted to go with "everybody's the same wherever you go," but there really is something about BostonFan that is singularly nitwitted.  It may just be the sheer insanity of the anger, envy, and separation from reality of BostonResident -- screeching that a city roughly the same as Philadelphia or Dallas be ranked remotely near great cities like New York, San Francisco... heck even Chicago.  The Red Sox and Bruins fans who live outside of Rt. 128 are absolutely just the same as everybody else, but the genuine article in the city itself is just another loudmouthed, drunken, bus-rattling, Southie racist.  Naturally, mileage may vary, but going into living there I was predisposed to like them, and coming out my best advice for Boston is a mid-range neutron bomb: save the buildings, start over with the stock.

Smaller market fans tend to be a lot more socially competent, and far more knowledgable.  The are more Cardinals fans at an average weekday game who understand baseball than live along the entire eastern corridor put together.

All IMHO, naturally.  B-]

[Rich Stamboulian]

It might be that you view the Yankees as "evil" for two primary reasons.  Steinbrenner, and the fact that the Sox have played second fiddle for so long to the Yankees and have so often had the Yankees beat them like a drum.  I can understand how those factors can make you "hate" them.

But the "obsessive" behavior of Sox fans, as noted in this article really makes me laugh.   Oh, and don't forget  the cadre of Sox fans who routinely act like morons at Yankee Stadium when the Sox are here...it's no wonder why they are fights at those games so often.   If you think the Yankees draw huge crowds only when Boston is in town, you're mistaken.  You should check the attendance figures for the past few years to note that the park has been packed for several visiting teams.  They didn't pass the # million fans total by drawing 50, 000 + for only the Bosox.

On the other hand, while life long Yankee fans definitely "care" about the Red Sox...it is the best, most passionate rivalry in MLB...we mostly just laugh at the Red Sox after June.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/19/sports/baseball/19boston.html

That "cheer" when the object of the derision isn't the opponent is similar to the practice at Lynah, eh?

[Rich Stamboulian]

That's "3 million"...sorry.

[jtwcornell91]

Wasn't James also the one who showed that trying to go from second to third on a ground ball to the left side of the infield (with less than two outs and first base empty) was actually a good gamble?  The argument was that the payoff if they didn't throw you out was a lot bigger than the risk.

[Greg Berge]

That was more of a Sabermetric-generic argument -- I don't think it was James in particular -- and it was contingent on the BA of the trailing hitter.  In what in retrospect is obvious logic but at the time was considered heresy, the geeks demonstrated that you should try to advance when a contact hitter was at the plate next, but not when a power hitter was. Power hitter outcomes (extra base hits and walks) are much better suited for a man on second, and contact hitter outcomes are much better for man on third.  The "experts" at the time hooted that power hitters could hit SF's at will.  It turns out that with few exceptions, power hitters are typically lousy at SF's -- when they get it out to the OF, it is generally over the wall, whereas they strike out way too much.  Who would you rather have up with a man on third and less than two outs -- Preston Wilson or Craig Counsell?



Post Edited (05-20-03 15:43)

[ugarte]

Greg wrote:
The "experts" at the time hooted that power hitters could hit SF's at will.  It turns out that with few exceptions, power hitters are typically lousy at SF's -- when they get it out to the OF, it is generally over the wall, . . .

As if there is any evidence that there is such a thing as an intentional SF.  People just try to mash the ball; nobody goes up swinging for a can-o-corn.

[jtwcornell91]

Doesn't the calculation also depend on whether there's no outs or one out?  I mean, in case the shortstop decides to go to first anyway and leave you on third with two outs?  This would seem to be the exception to the "never make the first or last out of the inning at third base" rule, since in this case you're potentially trading your out for the batter's.

[gtsully]

Rich Stamboulian wrote:

Oh, and don't forget  the cadre of Sox fans who routinely act like morons at Yankee Stadium when the Sox are here...it's no wonder why they are fights at those games so often.

Um, that goes both ways, chief.  I was at the Sox-Yanks game at Fenway last night, and there were plenty of loud-mouthed Yankee fans there just asking to get smacked (some of them did, of course).  I think Rich's point is well taken - there are obviously nitwits on both sides, but that shouldn't take away from the good fans, even if they are few and far between in some areas.

BTW, I've seen a few Sox games in Yankee Stadium as well, sitting in the right field bleachers with my Red Sox gear on, and I've managed not to act like a moron, and actually met some pretty nice people out there and had some pretty good baseball conversations (most of them probably felt sorry for me, but that's beside the point  ::nut:: ).  But you'll find your share of idiots out there, too (like the guy who chanted "Beat your kids, Everett, beat your kids!" at Crazy Carl, and the guy who stared me down for two full minutes from ten rows away and then just started screaming at me to "come down and face him," or something).  It goes both ways.

I'll make all you Yankee fans a deal - you retire the "nine-TEEN-eight-TEEN!" chant and we'll retire the "Yan-kees suck!" chant.  The 1918 is just annoying, but I only go back to 1977, so it doesn't mean that much to me.  If you really want to piss off most Red Sox fans, chant "1999" or something.

[gtsully]

Rich Hovorka '96 wrote:

Sully '00 wrote:
Most Sox fans aren't that bad - there are some idiots who continue to try to start "Yankees suck!" chants at Texas and Tampa Bay games who, sadly, get the majority of the attention

...and at Patriots parades, and at New Years Eve, and on the T...  ::rolleyes::

Um, yeah, the chant at the Super Bowl parade was embarrassing, to say the least.  I know Larry Izzo started it, but it probably would have happened anyway.  I've also heard it at Patriots pre-season games and at the MLS Cup finals last year.  Just sad.

[jtwcornell91]

Sully '00 wrote:
I'll make all you Yankee fans a deal - you retire the "nine-TEEN-eight-TEEN!" chant and we'll retire the "Yan-kees suck!" chant.  The 1918 is just annoying, but I only go back to 1977, so it doesn't mean that much to me.  If you really want to piss off most Red Sox fans, chant "1999" or something.

How about "Bucky Dent"? :-D