Where are our Alumni Playing Now

[dag14]

I am pretty sure that Colgate coach Don Vaughn was an assistant while Kent was at Cornell.  I suspect that relationship has something to do with Ethan's decision.

[Beeeej]

I am pretty sure that Colgate coach Don Vaughn was an assistant while Kent was at Cornell.  I suspect that relationship has something to do with Ethan's decision.

They overlapped for one entire season, during which season Schafer was also an assistant. But that brings me to another point - remember, Kent only stuck around for two seasons himself, and he left long before Schafer became head coach. It's tough to know why anyone makes the decisions they do, but in this case I'm leaning toward a combination of much more advantageous finances and a lower level of Cornell devotion than it sounds like people are imagining here. Playing several seasons in the NHL doesn't make anybody set for life unless they live way below their means the entire time, so I can absolutely see the attraction of a smaller hit for college.

[Trotsky]

I am pretty sure that Colgate coach Don Vaughn was an assistant while Kent was at Cornell.  I suspect that relationship has something to do with Ethan's decision.

They overlapped for one entire season, during which season Schafer was also an assistant. But that brings me to another point - remember, Kent only stuck around for two seasons himself, and he left long before Schafer became head coach. It's tough to know why anyone makes the decisions they do, but in this case I'm leaning toward a combination of much more advantageous finances and a lower level of Cornell devotion than it sounds like people are imagining here. Playing several seasons in the NHL doesn't make anybody set for life unless they live way below their means the entire time, so I can absolutely see the attraction of a smaller hit for college.

According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), the cost of attendance at Cornell is $70,371 and at Colgate is $69,860.  So that's a wash (which is hysterical; I mean... Colgate?).

Although Colgate offers athletic scholarships and Cornell ostensibly (and ostentatiously) does not, it's an open secret that Cornell will find a way to find a comparable package based on, ahem, something, if your slap shot is good enough.*

* Warning: this may erode your belief in Ivy academic integrity.  If this bothers you for more than four hours please consult a physician to tell you I am kidding and of course Ivy athletics has great academic integrity and would never, say, just put out a self-serving cover story to support their marketing brand.  Now, enjoy a deep and dreamless slumber.

[scoop85]

Academic standards for playing hockey, even at an Ivy, aren't very high. If this kid had ambitions of playing for Cornell, he could have gotten the B average or whatever he needed to do so. And the son of a guy who played 650 NHL games going with the cheaper option? Possible, but again it seems unlikely. The most likely reality is that for some reason he preferred Colgate to Cornell. Maybe he didn't want to skate in his father's shadow? It's a bad loss however it happened. It does seem Cornell was getting more NHL talent 10, 15 years ago.

Overall I think we are now getting as good if not better pro-potential talent than 10 to 15 years ago.

[Tom Lento]

Academic standards for playing hockey, even at an Ivy, aren't very high. If this kid had ambitions of playing for Cornell, he could have gotten the B average or whatever he needed to do so. And the son of a guy who played 650 NHL games going with the cheaper option? Possible, but again it seems unlikely. The most likely reality is that for some reason he preferred Colgate to Cornell. Maybe he didn't want to skate in his father's shadow? It's a bad loss however it happened. It does seem Cornell was getting more NHL talent 10, 15 years ago.

I don't know about talent but I decided to look up actual NHL players as a proxy. This is interesting (and thanks for compiling this Greg!):

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_by_Year.html

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_Alumni.html

I'm not sure if Cornell was graduating more NHLers 10/15 years ago or if it just hasn't been long enough to compare against recent classes. Of the Schafer-recruited players on that list it looks like Murray, Moulson, O'Byrne, Bitz, Scrivens, Greening, and Riley Nash were the ones to get more than random emergency call-up or rookie cup of coffee kind of work in the NHL. That makes 3-4 each from the strong periods in 2002-2006 and 2009-2011. I didn't actually classify players by departure year or where they played most of their games, but this seems roughly correct to me.

From the past several years we've got Ferlin and Ryan with at least one NHL game, plus Angello and a handful of other AHLers with the potential to break through. As a practical matter, anybody in the ECHL is a huge long shot.

It's possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers in general, but it's also possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers from the down period between 2011 and 2015, and the current crop of talent is getting back up to that level.

[ugarte]

I don't care at all if my son goes to Cornell and I post on hockey and wrestling forums like a total fuckin' nerd. Manderville played at Cornell for two seasons of people talking about how disappointing he was. I'm only surprised that Kim didn't make him come here.

People can speculate on the different admissions standards but I have a hard time believing there is a material difference between the academic profiles of the Cornell and Colgate teams.

[marty]

I am pretty sure that Colgate coach Don Vaughn was an assistant while Kent was at Cornell.  I suspect that relationship has something to do with Ethan's decision.

They overlapped for one entire season, during which season Schafer was also an assistant. But that brings me to another point - remember, Kent only stuck around for two seasons himself, and he left long before Schafer became head coach. It's tough to know why anyone makes the decisions they do, but in this case I'm leaning toward a combination of much more advantageous finances and a lower level of Cornell devotion than it sounds like people are imagining here. Playing several seasons in the NHL doesn't make anybody set for life unless they live way below their means the entire time, so I can absolutely see the attraction of a smaller hit for college.

According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), the cost of attendance at Cornell is $70,371 and at Colgate is $69,860.  So that's a wash (which is hysterical; I mean... Colgate?).

Although Colgate offers athletic scholarships and Cornell ostensibly (and ostentatiously) does not, it's an open secret that Cornell will find a way to find a comparable package based on, ahem, something, if your slap shot is good enough.*

* Warning: this may erode your belief in Ivy academic integrity.  If this bothers you for more than four hours please consult a physician to tell you I am kidding and of course Ivy athletics has great academic integrity and would never, say, just put out a self-serving cover story to support their marketing brand.  Now, enjoy a deep and dreamless slumber.

Yes, but you neglect the advantage of fluoride. NEN

[Trotsky]

I don't care at all if my son goes to Cornell

If your son is going in the first round of the draft you damn well better care.  We know where you live.  Well, I assume somebody here knows where you live.  Will live.  In the future when that happens.

So, yeah.

[Beeeej]

I don't care at all if my son goes to Cornell

If your son is going in the first round of the draft you damn well better care.  We know where you live.  Well, I assume somebody here knows where you live.  Will live.  In the future when that happens.

So, yeah.

Podcasts have a draft now?

[Trotsky]

Yes, but you neglect the advantage of fluoride. NEN

They're kids.  It always comes down to tail.

[Scersk '97]

Manderville played at Cornell for two seasons of people talking about how disappointing he was.

This, this, this is exactly what I remember from the time, and I was but a whippersnapper then.

[BearLover]

Academic standards for playing hockey, even at an Ivy, aren't very high. If this kid had ambitions of playing for Cornell, he could have gotten the B average or whatever he needed to do so. And the son of a guy who played 650 NHL games going with the cheaper option? Possible, but again it seems unlikely. The most likely reality is that for some reason he preferred Colgate to Cornell. Maybe he didn't want to skate in his father's shadow? It's a bad loss however it happened. It does seem Cornell was getting more NHL talent 10, 15 years ago.

I don't know about talent but I decided to look up actual NHL players as a proxy. This is interesting (and thanks for compiling this Greg!):

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_by_Year.html

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_Alumni.html

I'm not sure if Cornell was graduating more NHLers 10/15 years ago or if it just hasn't been long enough to compare against recent classes. Of the Schafer-recruited players on that list it looks like Murray, Moulson, O'Byrne, Bitz, Scrivens, Greening, and Riley Nash were the ones to get more than random emergency call-up or rookie cup of coffee kind of work in the NHL. That makes 3-4 each from the strong periods in 2002-2006 and 2009-2011. I didn't actually classify players by departure year or where they played most of their games, but this seems roughly correct to me.

From the past several years we've got Ferlin and Ryan with at least one NHL game, plus Angello and a handful of other AHLers with the potential to break through. As a practical matter, anybody in the ECHL is a huge long shot.

It's possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers in general, but it's also possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers from the down period between 2011 and 2015, and the current crop of talent is getting back up to that level.

We are seeing fewer draft picks per class (none of our incoming freshmen are expected to be drafted): [link to tbrw page on draft picks]

[Trotsky]

Manderville played at Cornell for two seasons of people talking about how disappointing he was.

He was an EXTREMELY hyped incoming freshman -- among our most ever -- plus he was just after Nieuwy and people wanted a successor.  I can remember him as a freshman trying to do it all himself and of course with the speed and strength of the college opponents he couldn't.  Ironically, he learned to be a solid 2-way player at Cornell and that gave him a long NHL career.  I doubt he has any resentments.

Kim, OTOH, is Cornell hockey royalty.  If there's a Queen, she's it.

So, no, I don't think there was any lack of emotional connection with Cornell and/or Cornell hockey (or with Mike who AFAIK is a friend of theirs) in that family.

Poopie.

[Tom Lento]

Academic standards for playing hockey, even at an Ivy, aren't very high. If this kid had ambitions of playing for Cornell, he could have gotten the B average or whatever he needed to do so. And the son of a guy who played 650 NHL games going with the cheaper option? Possible, but again it seems unlikely. The most likely reality is that for some reason he preferred Colgate to Cornell. Maybe he didn't want to skate in his father's shadow? It's a bad loss however it happened. It does seem Cornell was getting more NHL talent 10, 15 years ago.

I don't know about talent but I decided to look up actual NHL players as a proxy. This is interesting (and thanks for compiling this Greg!):

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_by_Year.html

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_Alumni.html

I'm not sure if Cornell was graduating more NHLers 10/15 years ago or if it just hasn't been long enough to compare against recent classes. Of the Schafer-recruited players on that list it looks like Murray, Moulson, O'Byrne, Bitz, Scrivens, Greening, and Riley Nash were the ones to get more than random emergency call-up or rookie cup of coffee kind of work in the NHL. That makes 3-4 each from the strong periods in 2002-2006 and 2009-2011. I didn't actually classify players by departure year or where they played most of their games, but this seems roughly correct to me.

From the past several years we've got Ferlin and Ryan with at least one NHL game, plus Angello and a handful of other AHLers with the potential to break through. As a practical matter, anybody in the ECHL is a huge long shot.

It's possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers in general, but it's also possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers from the down period between 2011 and 2015, and the current crop of talent is getting back up to that level.

We are seeing fewer draft picks per class (none of our incoming freshmen are expected to be drafted): [link to tbrw page on draft picks]

I chose to focus on actual NHL players because I'm just not sold on draft picks as a measure of "NHL-caliber talent" across a 15-20 year span. My memory from the late 90s and on was that we got a lot of late round picks that were really big dudes who never had a legitimate NHL shot. Sure, one of them happened to be Doug Murray, but the rest weren't nearly as good.

There are two big confounding factors that I suspect have more to do with the draft pick drop-off than an actual decrease in talent in recruiting classes:

1) The biggest factor is the number of Cornell's earlier picks who were 8th and 9th rounders. The NHL draft had 9 rounds up until 2004, and an extra 70+ players got picked overall. Based on overall draft position (> 217) Doug Murray, Brian McMeekin, Mark McRae, Mike Knoepfli, Dan Glover, Matt Moulson, and Mitch Carefoot would not have been selected in today's draft. Interestingly enough, two of those players were arguably our most successful NHL players from the Schafer era. Just excluding those players gets things closer across eras. If you exclude picks above 217 our high-water mark for draft choices per year in the Schafer era is 4, and we've hit it twice. Once in 2003, and once in 2014. In most years we've only gotten 1 or 2 < 217th picks on the team, so while we might have had a few more big years in the past it doesn't look like a clear trend to me.

2) The NHL started to embrace metrics and analysis over the past 5+ years, so it's entirely possible that "big kid with some talent who might develop" could be less of a late round draft pattern (assuming it was a pattern to begin with - my entire experience following the draft was "which Cornell players got taken" and a lot of them were big and either quick or good with the puck, but never all three). If that focus has really shifted, the likes of McMeekin, Glover, Gleed, and Krueger might not have been drafted at all, even with two more rounds. Nothing against those guys, they were fine players (and I loved to watch McMeekin back on defense, he was one of my favorite players from that era), but they weren't NHL talents.

[BearLover]

Academic standards for playing hockey, even at an Ivy, aren't very high. If this kid had ambitions of playing for Cornell, he could have gotten the B average or whatever he needed to do so. And the son of a guy who played 650 NHL games going with the cheaper option? Possible, but again it seems unlikely. The most likely reality is that for some reason he preferred Colgate to Cornell. Maybe he didn't want to skate in his father's shadow? It's a bad loss however it happened. It does seem Cornell was getting more NHL talent 10, 15 years ago.

I don't know about talent but I decided to look up actual NHL players as a proxy. This is interesting (and thanks for compiling this Greg!):

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_by_Year.html

http://www.tbrw.info/?/players/cornell_NHL_Alumni.html

I'm not sure if Cornell was graduating more NHLers 10/15 years ago or if it just hasn't been long enough to compare against recent classes. Of the Schafer-recruited players on that list it looks like Murray, Moulson, O'Byrne, Bitz, Scrivens, Greening, and Riley Nash were the ones to get more than random emergency call-up or rookie cup of coffee kind of work in the NHL. That makes 3-4 each from the strong periods in 2002-2006 and 2009-2011. I didn't actually classify players by departure year or where they played most of their games, but this seems roughly correct to me.

From the past several years we've got Ferlin and Ryan with at least one NHL game, plus Angello and a handful of other AHLers with the potential to break through. As a practical matter, anybody in the ECHL is a huge long shot.

It's possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers in general, but it's also possible that we're seeing fewer NHLers from the down period between 2011 and 2015, and the current crop of talent is getting back up to that level.

We are seeing fewer draft picks per class (none of our incoming freshmen are expected to be drafted): [link to tbrw page on draft picks]

I chose to focus on actual NHL players because I'm just not sold on draft picks as a measure of "NHL-caliber talent" across a 15-20 year span. My memory from the late 90s and on was that we got a lot of late round picks that were really big dudes who never had a legitimate NHL shot. Sure, one of them happened to be Doug Murray, but the rest weren't nearly as good.

There are two big confounding factors that I suspect have more to do with the draft pick drop-off than an actual decrease in talent in recruiting classes:

1) The biggest factor is the number of Cornell's earlier picks who were 8th and 9th rounders. The NHL draft had 9 rounds up until 2004, and an extra 70+ players got picked overall. Based on overall draft position (> 217) Doug Murray, Brian McMeekin, Mark McRae, Mike Knoepfli, Dan Glover, Matt Moulson, and Mitch Carefoot would not have been selected in today's draft. Interestingly enough, two of those players were arguably our most successful NHL players from the Schafer era. Just excluding those players gets things closer across eras. If you exclude picks above 217 our high-water mark for draft choices per year in the Schafer era is 4, and we've hit it twice. Once in 2003, and once in 2014. In most years we've only gotten 1 or 2 < 217th picks on the team, so while we might have had a few more big years in the past it doesn't look like a clear trend to me.

2) The NHL started to embrace metrics and analysis over the past 5+ years, so it's entirely possible that "big kid with some talent who might develop" could be less of a late round draft pattern (assuming it was a pattern to begin with - my entire experience following the draft was "which Cornell players got taken" and a lot of them were big and either quick or good with the puck, but never all three). If that focus has really shifted, the likes of McMeekin, Glover, Gleed, and Krueger might not have been drafted at all, even with two more rounds. Nothing against those guys, they were fine players (and I loved to watch McMeekin back on defense, he was one of my favorite players from that era), but they weren't NHL talents.

I definitely agree with (1) and probably agree with (2), but this upcoming year we are going to have only four draft picks on the team, one of whom was possibly a novelty pick by the Islanders rather than a player chosen for his NHL potential. (Happy to be wrong here, but Andong Song has 1 goal and 2 assists in 100 USHL games.) We currently have only two players in the NHL. Those numbers place us in the middle of the pack in the ECAC and significantly below Harvard. I'm not asking that we be recruit BC-level talent, but if we're going to compete for a national championship we should get more NHL talent than we've been getting. We should have more NHL players than Princeton and Dartmouth, at least.

For reference, NHL players who played college hockey, and drafted NCAA players (on both lists you can sort by school).