Captain McCarron?

[RichH]

You know what I'd written something out arguing this, but I'm not going to call out incident by incident a fellow student like that. Let's just say that he's not what I would choose in a captain. Then again my ideal captains are along the line of Toews, Lidstrom, Clarkie, Pronger, etc. Guys who clearly have the respect of not only everyone in the locker room but every one in the league, including the referees. Not sure that the new captain fits that mold.

That's OK, I saw your original post, and got to see the axe you have to grind against this guy.  Which is fine; it's your right. All I did was try to take an objective look at his season and see if the "always in the box" label getting hurled at him was justified.  I don't care if the chosen captains are beloved angels and I only slightly care that they can lead the team.  "Leadership" is one of those fuzzy un-quantifiable qualities, like "Scrappiness, by David Eckstein." I couldn't care less whose jerseys are getting the Cs and As stitched to them, as long as I see lots of Ws.

Really, the comment I would thumb my +1 like-star at in this thread is ugarte's.

[Jim Hyla]

Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one.  Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies. That said, even as the all time penalty minutes in a single season record holder, The Hammer never hurt his team quite as much as a guy like McCarron does because nearly all of his penalty minutes were offset by a 5 on the other team. Not to mention Schultz was also a decent hockey player scoring 200 career NHL points despite spending 4.28 minutes in the box per game. To go back to what I've said all along. Goonery with skill is one thing. If you can kill the penalties you take, there is some advantage to be drawn from physical intimidation (this does not including the stupid stick penalties Dustin Mowery seems to be so fond of taking). Goonery without skill is embarrassing and hurts your team. You can only afford to be rough and physical if you can minimize the consequences. Otherwise you're writing a check you can't cash.

I know you hate the guy as a player, so I'm not going to change your opinion.  But just to resettle my own opinion with a quick session of fact-checking, I walked through the box scores of this season.  

Boxes: http://www.collegehockeystats.net/1213/schedules/corm
McCarron game-by-game: http://www.collegehockeynews.com/players/career/John-McCarron/27841

First of all, the standout game when you look at the data is the infamous Game 2 QF blowout at Qunnipiac. McCarron alone picked up 27 PIMs, with one elbowing minor, two 10-minute misconducts, and one 5-minute major.  For the melee that concluded the 2nd period, McCarron was the only player on either team not to pick up a roughing minor to go along with the misconduct.  I don't recall why, but my guess is that it was given because he left the bench...more on that later.  McCarron's 2nd misconduct of that game was assessed along with a "contact-to-the-head" penalty in the 3rd as QU's Dalhuisen was hit with a roughing penalty at the same time.  It isn't exactly fair to say "excluding that game," because it happened, but I will note that 1/3 of McCarron's PIMs for the entire season came in that one game.  Without that one game, he is alongside Ferlin, Lowry, De Swardt, and Mowrey in PIMs.

OK, but what about the rest of the season?  By my count, he had 16 minors, 1 major, and 2 misconducts in 32 games.  Included in the minors were two "tough guy" penalties: charging the goalie and unsportsmanlike conduct.  The Nov. 30th game vs Clarkson saw him pick up the 5-minute major and the 10-minute DQ for "leaving the bench." In that stoppage, three Clarkson players were assessed 10-minute misconducts and Clarkson's McPherson was also assessed a 5-minute major for "hitting after the whistle."  No other CU players were penalized in that event.  The score was 1-0 Cornell at the time, and if leaving the bench gave him a 5-minute major, he most likely cost the team a 5:00 PP that was already coming (depending on the circumstances...I honestly don't remember what happened).  Cornell won that game as well as the following game McCarron had to sit out.  The other misconduct he received this season was at the home RPI game. Mowrey received a 2-minute slashing penalty and McCarron received a 10-minute misconduct with no minor attached.

Over half of his penalty minutes this season (44 of 84) came in two games.

There were two other games besides that Clarkson and Quinnipiac where he was hit with more than 1 penalty: CC to open the season (3 minors) and at Union (2 minors).  That was surprising to me. In 18 of his 33 games, he was clean on the penalty sheet.

I don't see that side of his game as thuggery or the aggitator/instigator (ala Steve Wilson) as much as over-reacting in "you can't do that to my teammate" situations. Does he play physically and aggressively? Without question.  The surprising thing to me that separates him from a talentless goon? His scoring numbers. He's 7 points behind Ferlin and Lowry in career scoring through 2 seasons.  After returning from his DQ, he put up 8 points in 7 games, with 6 PIMs.  The "goonery without skill" line in the above post has been completely debunked for me.  He's not afraid to hit, but he can put points on the board too.

Coming away from this walk through the box scores...it just seems to me that he's the guy who sticks up for his teammates. He's usually clean, until things get nasty somehow, and then he's the first to jump in the thick of it.  He's the one who leaves the bench when there's trouble.  I'm guessing that's why he's getting a letter.

All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains.  But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

You know what I'd written something out arguing this, but I'm not going to call out incident by incident a fellow student like that. Let's just say that he's not what I would choose in a captain. Then again my ideal captains are along the line of Toews, Lidstrom, Clarkie, Pronger, etc. Guys who clearly have the respect of not only everyone in the locker room but every one in the league, including the referees. Not sure that the new captain fits that mold.

Not that I want to carry on this discussion, but I'm not sure what you meant.

[Trotsky]

but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman.  I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation.  The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

[KeithK]

but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman.  I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation.  The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

Oh you'r definitely right that most of the time someone claims that they are being deprived of their right to free speech it's really just complaining about criticism.  I was just keying off Rich's statement that "it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say" in the choice of captains. Maybe it was silly of me to reply since Rich is really just criticizing the complaints about McCarron.

There are some folks on sports forums who take the position that we have no right to criticize the players, etc. because we're not down on the ice ourself.  I'm pretty sure Rich isn't one of those.

[RichH]

but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman.  I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation.  The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

Oh you'r definitely right that most of the time someone claims that they are being deprived of their right to free speech it's really just complaining about criticism.  I was just keying off Rich's statement that "it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say" in the choice of captains. Maybe it was silly of me to reply since Rich is really just criticizing the complaints about McCarron.

There are some folks on sports forums who take the position that we have no right to criticize the players, etc. because we're not down on the ice ourself.  I'm pretty sure Rich isn't one of those.

I can confirm that. I admit that "laughable" was a poor choice of words for me. One thing I want to be clear on is that any legitimate criticism of the team isn't met with a general response of "don't say bad things!!" like certain incarnations of the "OUR KNIGHTS ARE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!!" Clarkson Round Table. It's most telling after a bad year. I completely support the right of the "Schafer must go!" or "our players are talentless hacks" crowd to openly voice their opinion here without fear of verbal retribution, just as I also hope those same people understand that there will be folks here with historical perspectives to believe that this a grand era and "be careful what you wish for" if there be a slate-wiping.  Mostly, I want reasoned,  intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

[Trotsky]

Mostly, I want reasoned,  intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

It's a good mix of old farts and young upstarts (and young farts and old upstarts).  One of the best things about this forum is the arguments are just as likely to be within those groups as between.

[RichH]

Mostly, I want reasoned,  intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

Well, that, combined with the great daily deals.

[Josh '99]

We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains.  but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so.  We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

A reasonable statement.

I'm surprised nobody has commented yet (until now) on the unusual step of giving a goaltender a letter. IIRC, this was an interesting topic the last time it happened here (I'm guessing Underhill?), since the on-ice duties of captains are approaching refs, etc.

Per the rosters on collegehockeystats.net, Underhill never wore a letter.  That doesn't really answer your question, but it's a start.  The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

[Trotsky]

We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains.  but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so.  We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

A reasonable statement.

I'm surprised nobody has commented yet (until now) on the unusual step of giving a goaltender a letter. IIRC, this was an interesting topic the last time it happened here (I'm guessing Underhill?), since the on-ice duties of captains are approaching refs, etc.

Per the rosters on collegehockeystats.net, Underhill never wore a letter.  That doesn't really answer your question, but it's a start.  The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Unaccountably I have not done a captains/assistants page yet (this will now change), however if you are interested in whether a particular player (including a goalie) had a "C" you can go to the Record Generator and enter the player's ln_fn and click Career Scoring.  There is a column displaying whether he was a captain for a given season.

I will have to check whether I included assistants in the base data tonight.

[George64]

The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

[billhoward]

Mostly, I want reasoned,  intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

Well, that, combined with the great daily deals.

+1

[George64]

The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60.  As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

[RichH]

The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60.  As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Huh. Maybe it was speculation then, or discussion of an opponent who wore a captaincy letter.  The most relevant search result is here.

A goalie can't be designated as a captain for a game and can't act as a captain (talking with refs, etc.)  A team can name a goalie as its captain, but the title is effectively an honorary one.

[George64]

The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60.  As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Huh. Maybe it was speculation then, or discussion of an opponent who wore a captaincy letter.  The most relevant search result is here.

A goalie can't be designated as a captain for a game and can't act as a captain (talking with refs, etc.)  A team can name a goalie as its captain, but the title is effectively an honorary one.

Here's what the NCAA rule book has to say on the subject:

Rule 6 - Captain and Alternate Captains
6.1 Captain - One game captain shall be appointed by each team, and shall be the only player to have the privilege of discussing with the referee
any questions relating to interpretation of rules that may arise during the progress of a game. The captain should wear the letter "C,'' approximately 3 inches in height and in contrasting color, in a conspicuous position on the front of the jersey.
The referee and official scorer shall be advised before the start of each game of the name of the captain of the team and the designated alternate.
Alternate Captain - If the captain is not available because of injury or an imposed penalty, another player may be designated to act as captain.
Captain's Privileges - The captain may not dispute a judgment decision of the referee.
PENALTY—Misconduct. For further violation, game misconduct.
A goalkeeper shall not be entitled to exercise the privileges of captain.
The captain of each team shall meet with the referee before the start of each game (82.2).
During an altercation, the captain may not exercise his or her privileges until the referee has entered the referees' crease.

[BMac]

Thanks for posting that- I was just about to point out that everyone kept saying "assistant" rather than "alternate."