MSG Hockey v. Michigan

[Chris '03]

Cornell and BU have agreed not to follow traditional neutral site rules under which the higher ranked team is considered the "home team." .

I know that holds in postseason tournaments where seeds control but I've never heard it applied as a "traditional neutral site rule."

[Aaron M. Griffin]

Cornell and BU have agreed not to follow traditional neutral site rules under which the higher ranked team is considered the "home team." .

I know that holds in postseason tournaments where seeds control but I've never heard it applied as a "traditional neutral site rule."

That's the procedure to which I was referring. When tournament games are held at neutral sites. Sorry for my lack of clarity. My statement regarding the rotation of the designation for home teams at Red Hot Hockey is accurate and still stands.

[Swampy]

(OT: But what ever happened to "Any Person, Any Study"? Would the new New York City campus use, "Any Person, Any Study as long as it's STEM"?)

Why would that be any different from the medical school, which is also in New York City?  It's still Cornell - if you want to study something else, go to Ithaca.

Well, I consider graduate school to be different from undergraduate, and the proposed tech campus would have undergrads, as I understand it. Also, a good academic case can be made for locating Med Schools in big cities (primarily because they need lots of poor people to practice on). STEM fields have much less need to be in a city, although I'm sure Bloomberg wets his pants hoping his idea pans out with the next Silicon Valley.

Ezra Cornell's promise was university-wide. The fact that the campuses are in diverse locales (including Qatar) does not undermine that promise or its realization at all because study in those given fields is offered at satellite locations that are equally part of Cornell University. Do you purport that "any person" means that Cornell should have infinite enrollment with no admissions criteria? One could reasonably construct that phrase to mean such.

Yes, of course. The "any person" part always referred to people independent of race, creed, class, etc., but students had to be top notch. This followed directly from the philosophy behind Cornell, namely the uncompromising pursuit of truth. This idea of "any person" was revolutionary in its day.

Actually, if you read the history of Cornell (I'll have to look up the Internet to give you the exact sources), the "any study" idea was both revolutionary at the time and Andrew Dickson White's. Cornell himself originally wanted to build an agricultural school in Ovid, NY, but White talked him out of it. White's actual vision was a university that was "broad and balanced," including all fields of higher learning and being balanced between them.

In his first academic plan, White gave one reason for this. Only a balanced university would give equal respect to applied fields such as agriculture at a time when most institutions taught the classics as "real" academic work. There are, of course, other good reasons why a university should be broad and balanced. Many of these are obvious, but one less obvious stems from White's own area of expertise.

White was a historian whose main area of interest was the relation between religion and science. His major work on the subject devotes a large amount of space to the Italian Inquisition, and particularly the trial and subsequent life imprisonment of Galileo. So White was very, very conscious of how dominant ideologies could corrupt higher learning. Another of White's goals was that the university should be a place where people primarily "seek truth for its own sake" and would be free of external influences, such as commercial, political, and religious influences. Notably, for White, the purpose of the university was not for students to get jobs, not to invent the next new thing, etc. This would not make the university an ivory tower because White's vision included applied fields, but it would create distance so the university would be an independent, critical organization in the larger culture, even within applied fields.

So with this background, consider that in White's time Darwin had recently published Origin of Species, William Smith had published "the map that changed the world," paleontologists were piecing together things that formerly were thought to be merely rocks but turned out to be dinosaur bones, literary scholars were beginning to claim the parts of the Bible supposedly written by one man under divine inspiration had in fact been written by six or more individuals in different times and places, and archeologists were beginning to find things in the Middle East that contradicted Biblical accounts of ancient life. At the same time, White was getting letters from New York citizens telling him to make sure Cornell gave students a "Christian education." If one wanted the whole truth, one needed all the disciplines I mentioned and more, and the faculty and students needed to share ideas and collaborate. With scientific and literary evidence pulling the rug out from under the fundamentals of the Judeo-Christian tradition and challenging any literal reading of the Bible, it would have been too easy to shunt only one discipline, say evolutionary biology, away where Darwin could be taught with only minimal challenge to societal orthodoxy.

Today, corporate capitalism and the ideologies surrounding it are our version of the Italian Inquisition. Unlike the Inquisition, this is a form of what Bertram Gross called, "Friendly Fascism" -- a soft way for the domination of ideas that creates a playing field tilted in favor of corporations and corporate culture. And this ideological hegemony has made its way into higher education. See, for example, Jenifer Washburn's University Inc.: The Corporate Corruption of Higher Education.

So when Bloomberg creates a corporate agenda in which universities will help corporations regain profitability through research and teaching in the STEM disciplines, it's sort of as if the University of Padua were to have transfered Galileo from physics and astronomy to medicine, where his skills with optics could have helped in the biotech research of his time, namely studying leaches for bloodletting. (The microscope had been invented about 50 years before Galileo's trial.) Given the crisis of global capitalism, ideas like Bloomberg's hold out hope through nothing but faith in technology, but where is Cornell giving equal encouragement to investigating the idea that perhaps there is something intrinsic in the system that has caused the economy not only to suck but also to be on a downward spiral for the past forty years?

I think in a true spirit of mutual intellectual respect and interchange, different disciplines need to be in close geographic proximity and be treated equally. (Where are the campuses for the humanities, the arts, the social sciences, etc.?) White's vision that such an institution can provide a strong independent voice that is critical of dominant beliefs, and serve humanity by doing so, is still valid.

[billhoward]

Thank you. Truly good stuff.

[drs48]

Wow....what he said!!....(Swampy, to be sure).

[HeafDog]

It sure seems like a better shot than Colgate + Newark.

While it's pretty much a given that you'd get more butts in seats against [insert any big name here] at MSG than against [insert less appealing opponent here] in Newark, I wonder whether maybe the economics of using the two facilities are such that you're financially better off with 5,413 in Newark (the attendance last November against Colgate) or 3,500 in Uniondale (the attendance when we played them at the Mausoleum the equivalent day in 1998) than, say, 8,000 at MSG if you were to have a "name" opponent that doesn't have the same cachet with Cornell fans as BU does, or if you were to oversaturate the interest of casual fans by having the game every year.

I'd be very surprised if a significant number of fans who were at the MSG game said they were there chiefly because of the fact we were playing BU, and here's why:

[list=1]

• The demographics didn't seem to be that lopsided in favor of older alums;
• Cornellians from any era after BU left for Hockey East (when was it, the 80's?) might know, "Screw BU," but I doubt if more than one out of four know why we say that;
• Is it really the case whereby CU alums only attended because of the opponent? Or is it more likely that they were there because of the opportunity to see CU hockey without having to drive 4 hours?

(I would suggest that we fire up some good, old-fashioned eLynah polling to find out, but the data would be by no means representative of the population that attended the event.)

Having the place sold out and chock full of people wearing carnelian (and if you weren't, I've got a whole bunch of :-( with your name on it) is a real treat that I look forward to every time it happens. Let's not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs and saturate people with games every year. Every other year is enough (not that I wouldn't be there if it were every year -- I'd be there in a second -- I just am not sure the level of interest can sustain it), and screw BU. They want to do their own T-day thing? Then let's invite non-ECAC programs with reasonably large NYC-area alum populations. As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

[Robb]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

Not related to your concept of a whether the game would be a challenge, but I don't think an MSG game against a small-time opponent would be a good idea.  Even if 80% of the fans at RHH were Cornellians (obviously very generous), I don't think you'd get nearly the same turnout to see Cornell play Mercyhurst or Sacred Heart.  It hasn't been just an opportunity to see Cornell play in NYC; it's been an opportunity to see Cornell play a big-time opponent in NYC, and I think the distinction is very important.

[css228]

Cornellians from any era after BU left for Hockey East (when was it, the 80's?) might know, "Screw BU," but I doubt if more than one out of four know why we say that.

I think you'd be surprised. Most people know BU was a pretty huge rival,  if only because they ask after their first game at Lynah, "why do we say Screw BU?"

[HeafDog]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

Not related to your concept of a whether the game would be a challenge, but I don't think an MSG game against a small-time opponent would be a good idea.  Even if 80% of the fans at RHH were Cornellians (obviously very generous), I don't think you'd get nearly the same turnout to see Cornell play Mercyhurst or Sacred Heart.  It hasn't been just an opportunity to see Cornell play in NYC; it's been an opportunity to see Cornell play a big-time opponent in NYC, and I think the distinction is very important.

Well, perhaps, yeah. I agree with you a certain extent. But that's why I said, "non-ECAC programs with reasonably large NYC-area alum populations." (Sacred Heart and Mercyhurst not only have relatively small student, and thereby alum, populations, but also are not very well known schools overall.) I guess what I meant was that playing Michigan or BU at MSG would obviously be successful, but the event could still generate as much interest with, say, a Michigan State, I bet.

[Swampy]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

Not related to your concept of a whether the game would be a challenge, but I don't think an MSG game against a small-time opponent would be a good idea.  Even if 80% of the fans at RHH were Cornellians (obviously very generous), I don't think you'd get nearly the same turnout to see Cornell play Mercyhurst or Sacred Heart.  It hasn't been just an opportunity to see Cornell play in NYC; it's been an opportunity to see Cornell play a big-time opponent in NYC, and I think the distinction is very important.

Well, perhaps, yeah. I agree with you a certain extent. But that's why I said, "non-ECAC programs with reasonably large NYC-area alum populations." (Sacred Heart and Mercyhurst not only have relatively small student, and thereby alum, populations, but also are not very well known schools overall.) I guess what I meant was that playing Michigan or BU at MSG would obviously be successful, but the event could still generate as much interest with, say, a Michigan State, I bet.

But the goal shouldn't be just making a game at MSG a financial success. The goal should be instituting something special that will cement Cornell's status as an elite hockey program. (Put the legend in legendary, as in "legendary Big Red sweater.")

[RichH]

But the goal shouldn't be just making a game at MSG a financial success.

Right there. That's the exact moment you lost many athletic administrators.

[Robb]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

Not related to your concept of a whether the game would be a challenge, but I don't think an MSG game against a small-time opponent would be a good idea.  Even if 80% of the fans at RHH were Cornellians (obviously very generous), I don't think you'd get nearly the same turnout to see Cornell play Mercyhurst or Sacred Heart.  It hasn't been just an opportunity to see Cornell play in NYC; it's been an opportunity to see Cornell play a big-time opponent in NYC, and I think the distinction is very important.

Well, perhaps, yeah. I agree with you a certain extent. But that's why I said, "non-ECAC programs with reasonably large NYC-area alum populations." (Sacred Heart and Mercyhurst not only have relatively small student, and thereby alum, populations, but also are not very well known schools overall.) I guess what I meant was that playing Michigan or BU at MSG would obviously be successful, but the event could still generate as much interest with, say, a Michigan State, I bet.

What I'm saying is that regardless of the other school's NYC-area alum populations, you'll get fewer NYC-area Cornellians if the opponent is not perceived as big-time.  It's a double whammy on attendance - fewer opposing fans AND fewer Cornellians.  I'm guessing that Wisconsin has relatively few fans in the NYC area, but a game vs them would still draw better overall (due to higher interest from Cornell fans) than many schools who have more alums in NYC (e.g. UConn).

[Trotsky]

I'm guessing that Wisconsin has relatively few fans in the NYC area, but a game vs them would still draw better overall (due to higher interest from Cornell fans) than many schools who have more alums in NYC (e.g. UConn).

Wisconsin fans also travel better than any other fans in the country (yes /heresy).  I'll bet the Wisconsin contingent at an MSG game would be about as large as BU's, and they would be far more fun to party with afterwards.

[ugarte]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not an ECAC opponent, it's something reasonably novel, and we always seem to play poorly against non-conference opponents, so it doesn't have to necessarily be a "big-time program" in order for it to be a challenge for us to win.

Not related to your concept of a whether the game would be a challenge, but I don't think an MSG game against a small-time opponent would be a good idea.  Even if 80% of the fans at RHH were Cornellians (obviously very generous), I don't think you'd get nearly the same turnout to see Cornell play Mercyhurst or Sacred Heart.  It hasn't been just an opportunity to see Cornell play in NYC; it's been an opportunity to see Cornell play a big-time opponent in NYC, and I think the distinction is very important.

Well, perhaps, yeah. I agree with you a certain extent. But that's why I said, "non-ECAC programs with reasonably large NYC-area alum populations." (Sacred Heart and Mercyhurst not only have relatively small student, and thereby alum, populations, but also are not very well known schools overall.) I guess what I meant was that playing Michigan or BU at MSG would obviously be successful, but the event could still generate as much interest with, say, a Michigan State, I bet.

What I'm saying is that regardless of the other school's NYC-area alum populations, you'll get fewer NYC-area Cornellians if the opponent is not perceived as big-time.  It's a double whammy on attendance - fewer opposing fans AND fewer Cornellians.  I'm guessing that Wisconsin has relatively few fans in the NYC area, but a game vs them would still draw better overall (due to higher interest from Cornell fans) than many schools who have more alums in NYC (e.g. UConn).

You've never been to Kettle of Fish for a Packers game. Wisconsin would represent. Hell, half of Wisconsin's students are from Long Island anyway.

[heykb]

If we were to have Cornell-BU alternating with Cornell-Wisc, I'd plan my Thanksgiving around it every year.

I just don't believe people would tire of it. I believe it would become a tradition.

In New Orleans, Southern plays Grambling in football every year on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. That's one tough ticket to get; think Alabama-Auburn. Because it's a tradition.

We can easily have a tradition started and the athletic department will cash a nice check every year with RHH.

I guess all we can do is spitball some ideas around and wait to see how Andy Noel turns it into a wrestling event.