Important message to ice hockey ticket holders

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

Townie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.

[Chris '03]

For the sake of completeness:
From:http://www.rso.cornell.edu/BRPep/page/media.html (no guarantee the links below still work)

From the Armond Hill Debacle:

Thursday, January 31, 2002
Ugly stuff from the Ivy League
The coach and the pep band

Some try to paint Ivy League athletics as pure and proper, a model of decorum and/or the last great hope of Western civilization.
In reality, it's often gritty and subject to the hyper-competitiveness that can warp sports at any level.
A recent basketball game between Cornell and Columbia won't be remembered for anything noble, but an unfortunate exchange between Columbia's coach, Armond Hill, and a member of Cornell's Pep Band, Chad Potocky. What has further tainted the incident in recent days is the spin out of New York City.
At the game in question, members of the band were giving Hill a hard time for arguing with game officials, telling him to sit down and that he was a "dumb coach." Near the end of the first half, Hill -- in the middle of another harangue at the refs that drew jeers from the band -- left the coaching box and challenged Potocky, with, "What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face."
When Potocky declined to get into it with the coach, Hill said, "That's what I thought, ------," using a word derogatory to homosexuals.
After the game, Hill apologized and said he shouldn't have approached the band, which sits on five-row bleachers behind one of the baskets. Potocky told The Journal that Cornell police asked if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill, but he declined.
It would have been appropriate if Columbia had been a little tougher with Hill, other than saying he apologized, case closed. There are a lot of words somebody can use in anger that aren't as offensive. But Columbia officials not only declined to publicly criticize Hill, but took off after Cornell and where the band sits.
"I think the location of the (Cornell) band is unconscionable and frankly is something that we would never do here at Columbia," said the university's Athletic Director John Reeves in an interview with the Columbia Daily Spectator. "When people come to our place, we want to provide a hospitable environment where they are our guests. We don't do it through confrontation and we never will, we'd rather lose."
A wise guy might add, "Which is something you're quite good at." What's more obvious is Reeves' shallow attempt to take the heat off his Hill and lay it on East Hill.
Unconscionable? We're talking about where a pep band sits, not Enron's management policies. Unfortunately, Columbia analyzed this incident through Lion eyes, instead of making a point about wretched behavior that didn't speak well for the Ivy League.
http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020131/opinion/1561197.html


Columbia Coach Issues Apology for Using Slur
Newsday; Long Island, N.Y.; Jan 31, 2002; Arthur V. Claps. STAFF WRITER;


Full Text:
(Copyright Newsday Inc., 2002)
Columbia men's basketball coach Armond Hill issued a public apology yesterday following an incident in which he shouted a slur at a Cornell pep band member during Saturday's game at Cornell.
"My response to the band was wrong, and I admit that," Hill said in a statement released by the university. "Being in the heat of competition does not justify my actions. I apologized to the member of the band after the game, and we walked away with no hard feelings."
Hill wasn't available for further comment.
Columbia athletic director John Reeves, who said a copy of Hill's statement was sent to Cornell, said he would not disclose whether the university took disciplinary action against Hill.
"I have accepted his apology," said Reeves, who learned of the incident Saturday when he received an e-mail from a member of the Cornell marching band. The incident was first reported Sunday by Columbia's student newspaper, the Spectator. Reeves met with Hill on Monday and yesterday. "Personnel remedies have been taken of which I don't have the liberty to disclose and Armond will be on the sideline this weekend...I am sure this behavior will not reoccur."
Apparently, the sixth-year coach was angry with the band members' comments during Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell.
According to band member Chad Potocky, Hill erupted when the band got on the coach for arguing a foul call just before the half. Potocky said that Hill approached him and asked him to repeat the comments to his face. Potocky didn't respond and Hill said, "That's what I thought," adding an expletive.
"I was really surprised," Potocky said. "I didn't think we were saying anything that derogatory. We can't say anything bad. The worst thing we said the whole night was 'dumb coach.' But you don't think a coach would actually respond to that. It was completely unprofessional.
"Personally, I wasn't really offended by it. But other members of the band were. There were at least [40] witnesses. There were even kids there. Some don't want this to end so easily. They want him to get reprimanded, which he hasn't."

Published on January 31, 2002
Hill Apologizes For Behavior

The Columbia Daily Spectator received the following letter from Men's Basketball Head Coach Armond Hill Wednesday afternoon. Coach Hill's letter is in response to an incident at last Saturday's game between Cornell and Columbia in Ithaca, N.Y, during which Hill responded to jeering from members of the Cornell pep band by approaching the group and exchanging words with a member of the group. During the exchange, Hill referred to the individual as a "faggot."
Athletic Director John Reeves responded to the incident Monday by saying that Hill had apologized to the members of the band and acknowledged that his behavior was inappropriate. As such, Reeves said he considers the subject resolved.
January 30, 2002
To the Communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities,
I sincerely apologize for the inappropriate and offensive dialogue that came from me during an interaction between myself and members of the Cornell band last Saturday evening.
My choice of words was thoughtless and offensive.
This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis.
I hope you accept my apology, along with a promise that this will never happen again.
Respectfully,
Armond Hill
Men's Basketball Coach
Columbia University
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/01/31/3c590e2728d25

Monday, January 28, 2002
Columbia coach loses his cool
By CHRISTOPHER FEAVER
Journal Staff

Columbia seventh-year head men's basketball coach Armond Hill allegedly called a member of the Cornell Pep Band a word derogatory to homosexuals during Saturday's game between the Lions and Cornell at Newman Arena.
The incident took place with four seconds remaining in the first half, with the score tied 23-23 and as Cornell player Jacques Vigneault was getting ready to shoot three foul shots after being fouled.
Hill, who had been on his feet shouting at officials for much of the first half, walked off the Columbia bench and went behind the baseline near the basket where Vigneault was about to shoot and verbally confronted members of the Cornell Pep Band.
In response to something said by senior pep band member Chad Potocky, Hill said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----," according to Potocky and several members of the pep band.
"I was yelling at him because I disagreed with him on the (Vigneault) call," said Potocky, who was sitting in the top row of the five-row bleachers behind the basket. "I was telling him to sit down. Then I said he was a dumb coach. Then he came over and said 'What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face.'"
"I said, 'Look, go sit down.' That's when he said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----.'"
When asked after the game about what happened near the end of the first half, Hill said he did not want to comment, but added, "I made a mistake and I shouldn't have gone over there. But I will write the guy and apologize to him."
The pep band had been verbally riding Hill through much of the first half, saying "mostly sit down and shut up," according to Cornell Pep Band Manager Chris Parkin.
"He was all over the referees in the first half and we were basically all over him in response to get him off the referees," Parkin said. "We told him to sit down and shut up, basically sticking to those few words. We did not use any derogatory language."
Saturday's Columbia game was the first attended by a full contingent of the pep band this season. The band normally plays for Big Red hockey games in the winter, but was at the basketball game due to a men's/women's doubleheader and Employee Night, which drew 2,106 fans to Newman, by far the largest crowd of the season.
After the incident, Potocky said Cornell police wanted to know if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill. But he refused.
Both Hill and the pep band were relatively quiet in the second half, which Columbia dominated on the way to a 54-42 win.
http://ithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020128/localsports/1543215.html

Jeering Cornell Pep Band Provokes Hill Outburst
Hill said he would apologize to a member of the Cornell Big Red Pep Band after verbal altercation.
By Josh Fay-Hurvitz
Spectator Senior Staff Writer
/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1
Columbia Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill

Near the end of the first half of Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell on Saturday, Head Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill engaged in a heated exchange with members of the Cornell University Big Red Pep Band.
In the course of the exchange, band manager Chris Parkin, Cornell '03, alleges that Hill directed his comments at one member of the band and called him a "faggot."
The incident is also reported in today's issue of the Cornell Daily Sun. The Spectator has learned that the band member in question was Chad Potocky, Cornell '02, who confirmed the event had taken place.
Following a play in which junior forward Marco McCottry was called for a foul, Hill left the Columbia bench and approached the band, seated in the stands on the baseline adjacent to the Lions' bench. Hill, who had been complaining to the refereeing crew about that and other calls, apparently took offense to some of the comments made by band members and left the coaching box in the final seconds of the half to confront the group. Hill and Potocky then exchanged words. As the half expired, Hill left the court.
According to Parkin, he band was chanting at Hill to "sit down" and "shut up." Parkin and Potocky allege that Hill challenged Potocky, the loudest member of the band at the time, to repeat his comments to Hill's face.
When Potocky refused, the two claim that Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."
"It's fairly standard," Parkin said of the band's jeering. "When a coach gets into it with a ref, we get into it with him."
After the game, when asked about the altercation in general, Hill told the Spectator his version of the event.
"Right before halftime there was one gentleman that was singling me out, yelling at me, and calling me names that I didn't think were fair, and so I went over to him, and I said, ëWhy don't you come down to me and say it to me?' and he didn't, and I said, ëJust what I thought.' And, you know, I probably cursed at him, and that's what got everyone all riled up.... I should not have went over there, but if I see the kid, I will apologize." Hill could not be reached for comment about the specific incident late Sunday night.
Once the half had ended, Assistant Coach Walter Townes and the referees met at the scorer's table, where Townes pointed Potocky out to the three-man crew. Additionally, Parkin discussed the incident with the referees, officials from the Cornell athletic department, and several officers from Cornell police during halftime, but no official complaints were lodged against Hill.
Potocky claims that he was asked by Cornell police if he wanted to press charges against Hill for violating Cornell's code of conduct but declined. Spectator could neither confirm the violation nor the offer.
The second half of the game began as scheduled, and the game was completed without incident.
When approached by Parkin after the game and asked to apologize to the student in question, Hill agreed to do so and took the student's contact information. Hill also verbally apologized to Parkin, and the two men shook hands.
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/01/28/3c55192c6e760

Hill Apologizes for Offensive Words
Columbia head basketball coach sends letter of apology to communities

By AMANDA ANGEL

Armond Hill, Columbia University's head men's basketball coach, officially apologized to the Cornell and Columbia communities after making offensive remarks to a Cornell pep band member. During the Cornell men's basketball game last Saturday at Newman Arena, Hill called senior trombonist Chad Potocky "a faggot," in response to heckling from the band member.

In a letter addressed to the communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities, Hill admited his mistakes, calling his remarks "inappropriate," "thoughtless," and "offensive."

"This kind of behavior is unacceptable," he continued, "and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis."

The verbal altercation occured after Cornell junior Jacques Vigneault was fouled while shooting a 3-pointer. Hill argued the call with the officials as the pep band continued its usual heckling.

Hill alleged that he heard derogatory cheers from members of the band and confronted Potocky, asking him to repeat his remarks. When Potocky refused, Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."

Potocky has declined to take any legal action. Cornell does not seem to be pursuing the situation further, although it is expected to be a topic of discussion at the Ivy League conference which began Tuesday. Cornell Athletic Director Andy Noel has yet to issue an official statement .

This apology comes two days after Hill presented a written apology to the Columbia and Cornell Athletic Departments. According to The Columbia Spectator, Athletic Director John Reeves has accepted Hill's statement and declared the issue closed.

http://cornelldailysun.com/perl/getArticle.pl?id=4384


MONDAY, JANUARY 28, 2002

M. Hoops Falls To Columbia

By SUMEET SARIN

In an example of a strange trend that has been gaining national attention, Columbia's head coach Armond Hill was caught in an altercation with a member of the Cornell pep band at the end of the first half. According to junior manager Chris Parkin, coach Hill called pep band member Chad Potocky a "faggot" in response to the heckling Hill had been receiving for arguing with the referees.

According to Parkin, "[Hill] came over to [Potocky] who was sort of on his own at that point saying, 'Sit down -- whatever', so the coach comes over and says, 'Excuse me, what did you say? You want to say it to my face?' and [Potocky] basically says, 'Go sit down, calm down, coach the game.' and [Hill] says, 'Yeah, that's what I thought, faggot' and that is personally offensive to myself, the person it was addressed to, the four little kids sitting directly to my left, and the 20 fifth graders sitting behind the Columbia bench."

After the game, coach Hill did not comment on the incident, but admitted his fault, "I made a mistake and I'll write him an apology."

Coach's derogatory words prompt response

To the Editor:

I believe that Columbia University's head coach Armond Hill owes a public apology to the Cornell community as well as to pep band member Chad Potocky '02. As a Cornell student present at the game, I took personal offense to Hill's specific use of the word "faggot" at the game (Sports, M. Hoops Falls to Columbia, Jan. 28, 2002). Whether or not the coach intentionally chose that word, he should remember that his actions represent Columbia.

As a person who has ties to both University communities, I am disappointed that such a highly esteemed member of Columbia could be so thoughtless. Even if Hill's remark was truly only an unintentional outburst, it reveals the potential of more deeply held convictions on his part. His comments were also clearly audible to several children under the age of 12, who may not be able to tell the difference between an alleged unintentional outburst and an actual insult.

The Cornell community has worked hard to create a welcoming atmosphere at sporting events for everybody. Hill owes all of us who take pride in this atmosphere an apology.
-- Rachel Diana Goldstein '03

[Townie]

[quote Tom Tone][quote mnagowski] Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.[/quote]

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal. [/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp

Some downplay the importance of an Ivy, but not the athletes or coaches who bust their butts to compete.  It certainly doesn't have the prestige of an ECAC or national title, but it is a relevant measure of success as it presents a level playing among the schools.

[quote Tom Tone]
Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.
[/quote]
Look, you can't have everything.  The PE offerings were expanded in response to student demand.  Department budget constraints required imposition of fees for certain courses.  I highly recommend the pistol class.  Make sure you get in Al Gantert's section!

[quote Tom Tone]
Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to "Class of '71" hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
http://www.upenn.edu/recreation/facilities/

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?[/quote]


Tom:  Believe me when I say Andy has enough trouble figuring out how to provide University mandated (yet under-funded) pay increases, let alone other give-aways.  Your jaw would drop if you knew how much (or little!) support Athletics gets from Day Hall.  It's not that Day Hall doesn't support Athletics (in fact they do), but they don't have the money either.

[Jordan 04]

[quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

Townie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

And as a student I heard very little swearing from students around me.  But, as Chris said a couple of posts later, there are no Get Out of Jail Free apologies on our side. Unfair, unequal treatment.

I'm being discriminatory? I said nothing about anyone being older and thus being deaf. Seems as though you are the one being prejudicial in coming to such conclusions. I know many to be half-deaf based on my own eyewitness accounts as well all the additional stories that emerge of students being kicked out for not cursing at all, but for saying such dirty little words as "rough," because hey, among 3,000 other screaming fans, it sounded like "fuck" to an usher!  

So all of these occurrences would make them either: a) deaf, b) liars, or c) pawns of the AD, charged with making indiscriminate ejections of students based on what they think they might have heard. I'll be overwhelmingly generous and give them the benefit of the doubt that it's (a).

[BCrespi]

Wow.  Thanks.  Consider me caught up.

[CowbellGuy]

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

[Townie]

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

Townie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.[/quote]

Chris:  any swearing that may occur in townie-land is not part of a standard cheer screamed by hundreds of people who are within ear-shot of Section C Brass and the radio microphone.  I think this issue is about school image and respect for others, including those who make the rules (Athletics).

There's a simple solution: Respect the wishes of those who make the rules and don't swear (not referring to you specifically), even if you don't like the rulemakers or disagree with the rule.  I'm not suggesting people blindly follow what they are told; this isn't Nazi Germany.  But if students showed "maturity" by respecting the reasonable request of those in-charge, I suspect those in-charge would be more understanding of the occasional F-bomb.  Instead, some students are calling Athletics' bluff, and since they have the power, Athletics is forced to enforce their policy. Sadly, there is "collateral damage".  But in my view, the students are bringing this upon themselves.

Again, I'm not making excuses for Andy & Co., and I'm sure much of what you say is true.  But I believe if you taunt the dog, don't complain when it bites.

[Townie]

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.[/quote]
Off topic: To be sure, the Wrestling Facility does not help with the Title IX compliance, which highlights the flaws in the measurement process.  With respect to this, I believe two women, who were disturbed by males losing opportunities in the name of Title IX, began a petition to modify the compliance measurement.

[Townie]

[quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it!

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie][quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it![/quote]

Read it all again. Slowly.

[ugarte]

[quote Chris '03]Read it all again. Slowly.[/quote]
I've read it - both quickly and slowly - and I'll be damned if I know what point Tom Tone was trying to make by noting that money is put into sports that don't have 8 Ivy League competitors. Hockey, lax and wrestling are sports that generate actual attendance and in which the school is nationally competitive. What difference does it make if Yale chooses not to field a wrestling team?

[Townie]

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it![/quote]

Read it all again. Slowly.[/quote]

Thanks, Chris.  My mistake.  ::blush::

[Townie]

This Armond Hill thing brings up an interesting point.  Hill used a word that some found offensive.  Not everybody is offended by that word (e.g., Potocky), yet some students, at whom the word was not even directed, took offense to it.  The use of that word in public has been greatly curtailed, I'm guessing out of respect for those offended.  I don't know if that word is illegal, but societal mores have marked this word as inappropriate.

On the other hand, we have a group of students who use a word that is offensive to some (many?) as part of a standard cheer in a similar venue.  Yet when asked to stop using it, some students persist.  I understand that much of this thread involves the way in which Athletics enforces their policy, but do I detect a double-standard here?  I also recognize that "faggot" is a slur often directed at an individual, whereas "fuck" is a verb (in this case).  But the point is about respect for others who find a word offensive while the person/group using it clearly does not, at least not during the cheer.

Those who use the word during the cheer might be much less inclined to use it when talking to their parents, or their girlfriend's parents, or their boss, or whomever.  If so, they understand that it is not always appropriate to use this word.  By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?

[Tom Tone]

[quote Townie]"By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?"[/quote]

I'm offended by the word 'god'. I'm not inclined to use it around my parents or my boss. How many other people do I need to be offended by the word 'god' do I need in order to get people ejected for singing O' Canada?


Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate? Even if fuck were inappropriate, where do they get the idea that they can regulate words with similar sounds?  Why should I be guilted into apologizing just because your kid heard a word in the English language?  It's not my job to be their parent nor would I want my tuition money and ticket fees to go to pay people who set and enforce arbitrary standards.