Important message to ice hockey ticket holders

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Tom Tone]Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous. [/quote]I'll mention again that Coach Schafer was a prime mover for this change. Somehow when we discuss this we all conveniently forget that point. Yes, it has been poorly implemented, but do any of us know who first started the discussion?

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

So, you'd rather have a smaller rink where some people can't get tickets for a game?::screwy::We had a wonderful expansion, again with strong input from the hockey program. More seats, but still a Lynah atmosphere.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

I agree, I'm one of those. (family of 3)

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

Give me break. Everyone in the sports world (a bit of hyperbole, I agree) says this is a wonderful facility and a great addition to the program. It's a strong draw for recruits and you can hold matches there. If you want to accommodate larger crowds you move them to a larger on campus facility. How novel an idea. Have you ever heard of UConn playing home games in Hartford Civic Center? Maybe wrestling should move back to Teagle?

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

Alumni fields started to go many years before, the present administration just continued it. Do you honestly think if the school wanted more room for academic facilities, that athletics could or should stop it. If so move to another league where athletics rules the school; there are many of them out there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

That does sound stupid, I remember it, but not well enough to comment.

Look my opinion is that we are currently in a great time for Cornell athletics, both men's and women's. Now if we could just get a good football team.::help::

[Tom Tone]

I know that Coach Schafer was the originator of many of the changes regarding swearing, however, many times athletics has taken it too far especially in threatening the band with various sanctions. There was a time when 'sucks' was considered taboo.

I'd like people to get tickets but ticket prices increased along with with increased capacity. The standing room used to be a pretty decent way to watch a game and now, some of the sightlines at the tops of the student sections are terrible.

The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

As far as the student's paying:
http://cornellsun.com/node/17758

No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.

[Townie]

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.[/quote]

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

About the winning thing: just stating the facts.  Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

About swearing:  Dang!  You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!!  Come on Chris, cut the histrionics.  I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens.  But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  The fact is they are effective, but not perfect.  The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

[Tom Tone]

[quote Townie]The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him![/quote]

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew.  It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.

[Townie]

[quote Tom Tone]Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.[/quote]

Jim Hyla did a good job of responding to many of these, but I'll respond to a couple.

The Friedman Wrestling Center is a major, MAJOR recruiting advantage for Rob Koll.  The facility had a budget, so one must work within those confines.  Andy was very cautious NOT to burden the university by exceeding that budget, unlike many of his predecessors!  I'd also like to mention that it was Coach Noel who helped cultivate the Athletics relationship with Steve Friedman back in the 1970's as he rebuilt the wrestling program.  And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes.  Notice the Friedman Strength & Conditioning Center?  Thanks Steve, thanks Andy!

Concessions:  Agreed...the pricing is an embarassment!  Unfortunately, Athletics benefits very little from those prices.  Background: Previous vendors were difficult to work with.  They only wanted to serve at certain money-making events.  In order to keep a consistent vendor and have them work events that are barely profitable, they needed to increase prices.  Having said that, I still agree that prices are too high.

The students paying for events was an administrative screw-up during a time of transition in the business office.  The recent change that occured 4 (?) years ago reflected a shift in Undergrad Student Assembly priorities. The Grad SA did not cease funding.  Hard to "blame" Andy for either of those.

Concerning the increase in ticket prices, understand that Athletics is under continual funding pressure.  Very few "outsiders" truly know the funding model.  The University funds only a portion of Athletics & Physical Education.  It's up to Andy & Co. to figure out the rest...that's the truth.  The (majority) remainder of funds comes from alumni gifts, endowment income and other revenue (tickets, sponsorships, etc.).  Hockey tickets are an obvious method for funding any university shortfall.  Despite the price increase, the Lynah experience is virtually unchanged, which surprises me.  (I thought there'd be more empty seats.)  It's unfortunate that prices are so high, and I don't like it either, but I understand Athletics has very few options if the program is to thrive.  Frankly, I think they've done a good job given the constant financial pressure they endure.  Understand that CU's contribution to Athletics is highly dependant upon the external economic environment, so when state funding or endowment income drops, so does the funding to the departments.  Despite this variable funding stream, Athletics continues to provide a positive experience for the student-athlete, which is a core element of their mission.

Look, Andy & Co. are not perfect, but few truly understand the circumstances and only draw conclusions from the tip of the iceberg.  This original post is a prime example.  Blame Andy for "selling out" alumni fields?  That was a trustee decision.  Blame Andy for an inadequate wrestling center?  Get a grip...that facility (with its own work-out facility, training room, etc) is like Heaven to recruits.

Obviously I have access to information that few here do.  Based on my knowledge of the FACTS, many (not all) of the conclusions I read are drawn from opinion and conjecture, and are inaccurate and inherently unfair.  Like it or not, he is one of most successful Cornell ADs.  His administration has done an excellent job of stewarding the program, both Athletics and Physical Education.  Been to a basketball game recently?  Remember how vacant Newman Arena was in 2000?  He hired (and retained!) both Steve Donahue and Dayna Smith.  Here are a few more facts:

Last Men's Lax championship before Andy:  1987
Last Women's Lax    "         "      "  :  Never  
Last Men's Basketball championship before Andy:  1988
Last Women's Basketball "           "      "   :  Never

These don't happen by magic.  Someone needs to work to make it happen.  Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.

[Townie]

[quote Tom Tone]
No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.[/quote]  Maybe so, but understand that each Ivy school has a different funding model, so comparisons between institutions is classic apples and oranges.  Also, in some institutions, the student activity fee covers ticket revenue, fitness center memberships, etc.  IIRC, the athletic program at Princeton is fully-funded by the institution, so they need not charge admission.  Ticket revenue for Cornell is a necessary part of their funding.  As funding pressure increased over the past five years, Athletics began charging to more events (e.g, football, women's lax, volleyball, women hockey, etc.).  Given the option, I doubt Athletics would charge students for events, unless instructed by the university.  I believe Cornell provides the lowest level of athletics funding of all the Ivies despite having the second (maybe third) largest program (number of teams).

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie][quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.[/quote]

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.
[/quote]

Good for you. Would you like a medal?

About the winning thing: just stating the facts.  Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.

About swearing:  Dang!  You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!!  Come on Chris, cut the histrionics.  I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens.  But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  

I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.

The fact is they are effective, but not perfect.  The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.

[Tom Tone]

[quote Townie]These don't happen by magic.  Someone needs to work to make it happen.  Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.[/quote]


While all these behind-the-scenes facts might be known by a select few, the image presented by the athletics department to the non-student athlete is poor.

The Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy. If J. Andrew were being such a good steward, maybe he should be pushing for more money to reduce these costs instead of building a Wrestling palace usable by .001% of the student population.

[quote Townie]And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes. [/quote]

So it's okay for the non-athletes who pay 145$ a year to workout in unappealing facilities?

[mnagowski]

The Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy.

Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.

[Flyers1037]

[quote Tom Tone][quote Townie]The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him![/quote]

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew.  It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.[/quote]

I, for one, am not going to donate a goddamn dime to Cornell.  They bled my dry and didn't have any remorse in doing it.  I had a sophomore year class that was REQUIRED to take... and it had a course fee attached to it.  That just isn't right.  Further more, I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.

[TimV]

[quote Flyers1037]I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.[/quote]

If your writing skills don't improve your charitible foundation will suffer.::whistle::

[Townie]

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Chris '03]
Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.
[/quote]

Good for you. Would you like a medal?
[/quote]

Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business."  The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co..  Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.  

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?  :-D

[quote Chris '03]
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.
[/quote]

I don't think it's irrelevant.  This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal.  My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration.  Fair and balanced.  Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.

[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.
[/quote]

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

[quote Townie]
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  
[/quote]
[quote Chris '03]
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.
[/quote]

I'm referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.

[quote Chris '03]Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.[/quote]

I agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he'd be out.  Period.  If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they'd move on and he'd be out.   He's been here since 1999.  CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic.  Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right.  Overall, he's doing a very good job in a very difficult environment.  Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

[Townie]

[quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

[CowbellGuy]

[quote Townie]many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program ... Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]

Athletics trying to cut a sport that went on to do well is an example of their success?

[Jordan 04]

Townie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.