Important message to ice hockey ticket holders

[Robb]

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]
And Fencing.  While not quite as dramatic of a turnaround, the re-instated Women's Fencing Team is doing much better than the version when we were co-ed.  The Cornell women beat another Ivy in 2006 for the first time in 14 years (yikes) and sent 5 fencers to the NCAAs last year.  The coach is a World Champion and Olympic medalist - a major upgrade to the support for fencing since the mid 90s.  Now about that men's team....  Grrrrr....

[Tom Tone]

[quote mnagowski] Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.[/quote]

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal.  

Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.

Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to "Class of '71" hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
http://www.upenn.edu/recreation/facilities/

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?

[Tom Tone]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]

What? Building a facility for a women's sport near other athletic facilities is a violation of Title IX now? Surely you jest.

[Chris '03]

[quote Townie]Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.[/quote]


[quote Chris]Good for you. Would you like a medal?[/quote]

[quote Townie]
Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business."  The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co..  Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.  

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?  :-D[/quote]

Matching assumptions with assumption, eh? Good form! Of course you have the benefit of knowing exactly who I am but all I know about you is that you go to hockey games. Presuming you have dealt with these folks (or for all I know you are one of these folks) I'll concede your assertion as fact and amend my above conditional statement to say that [one who apologizes for this administration] either never actually interacted with these people or you has a really low bar for professionalism.


[quote Chris]Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.[/quote]
[quote Townie]
I don't think it's irrelevant.  This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal.  My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration.  Fair and balanced.  Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.
[/quote]
You miss the point entirely. I think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates. If I have to chose between winning more in that environment and winning less in another environment, I'll take winning less. There are many components to success as an AD. Winning is one but not the only one. If he was a saint but lost all the time, he'd be out. If he's a horrible person but wins, he should be out too.


[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.
[/quote]
[quote Townie]
The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.
[/quote]
You've missed my point. And besides, by all accounts there's zero tolerance for apologies on the other side of the rink.

[quote Townie]
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  
[/quote]
[quote Chris '03]
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.
[/quote]
[quote Townie]
I'm referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.
[/quote]

I'm referring to the baseless accusations made against me personally, friends of mine, and the band when I represented it.

[quote Chris '03]Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.[/quote]

I agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he'd be out.  Period.  If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they'd move on and he'd be out.   He's been here since 1999.  CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic.  Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right.  Overall, he's doing a very good job in a very difficult environment.  Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

Very good at schmoozing and influencing donors. Good for him. Sign him up for the development office. I'm glad coaches seem comfortable enough to stay. Several of them have told me they detest the way the department treats students. But from the coach's perspective, it is all about winning. That's all he is measured against. The AD should be measured against more than won loss record. But that may be be my fragile idealist viewpoint speaking or the selfish idea that I shouldn't be treated like a nuisance to be eliminated and I should deal with the crap that comes with winning.

[Flyers1037]

[quote TimV][quote Flyers1037]I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.[/quote]

If your writing skills don't improve your charitable foundation will suffer.::whistle::[/quote]

I might have been a little bit inebriated when writing that... and to return the favor, FYP.

[mnagowski]

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Your experience may be different to mine, but I seem to remember absolutely no trouble swimming in Helen Newman, playing basketball on West, or running the indoor track during the allotted time periods. That would strike me as the definition of 'available'. I also seem to remember nobody stopping me and asking me to pay money when I went cross-country skiing and snowshoeing in the Plantations or when I would take a mid-February jog around Cayuga Heights.

And frankly, I was happy that I didn't have to pay money to subsidize the use of elliptical machines.

Now, would it be nice if Cornell had an Olympic size pool and another indoor track facility? Hell yes. In fact, I'm pretty certain both Athletics and Development have been trying to aggressively fundraise for an expansion to Helen Newman hall for the last decade. Just because a new natatorium hasn't been built, while a new wrestling center has, doesn't mean that Athletics doesn't have the interest in the non-scholar athlete at heart. Friedman wanted a wrestling center, and so he gave money for a Wrestling center. It's not a zero sum game. At the end of the day, if you don't like what's available, why not join a fundraising committee to improve the quality of athletic offerings on campus?

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes..

Yes. Penn basketball is the only thing that approaches Cornell hockey in terms of student demand, aside from the Harvard-Yale game. But as I mentioned, even the Palestra is half empty for most games during the Ivy season. So to a certain extent, ticket prices will naturally reflect demand.

Should Athletics be offering a better environment to students at Lynah? Of course.  Would it be great if Cornell had better gyms and pools? Of course. But the suggestion that athletic involvement at Cornell will be $2500 more expensive than at any other Ivy is completely baseless.

Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things.

But thanks for proving my point. And I take my statement back. You obviously did know what you were talking about, but you chose to omit the relevant and pertinent information that would have discredited your argument.

[TimV]

Got me.::demented::

[Lowell '99]

I think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates.

Without commenting on the larger issues at hand, I have to agree with Chris on this one.  I've seen Athletics staff literally get up in individual fans' faces to shout at them for their behavior.  Right or wrong, they only belittle themselves by doing this.  It's not quite of the same magnitude as the Armand Hill incident at Newman about 7 years ago, but it's close (and how that guy didn't get fired immediately for that is beyond me... Imus got fired for about the similar comments, although they were racist, not homophobic).

[BCrespi]

What was this Armand Hill incident?  I can't find anything in the archives.

[fink]

Sorry for the long links, had to look for cached versions.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pYPDVWpjhp4J:robots.cnnsi.com/basketball/college/men/news/2002/172uwire1/+%22columbia+coach+apologizes%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a


http://www.gaysports.com/page.cfm?Sectionid=11&typeofsite=snippetdetail&ID=20&snippetset=yes


Occurred before elf and wasn't hockey related.

Thread drift complete?

[RichH]

[quote BCrespi]What was this Armand Hill incident?  I can't find anything in the archives.[/quote]

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2002/01/29/coach-hill-apologizes-cornell-altercation

[BCrespi]

Thanks guys.  I promise, my Google's not broken, I just looked up Armand, not Armond, as the earlier post stated, and it was certainly not a searched enough query to help me out, in that regard.

[Townie]

[quote Jordan 04]

Townie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?

[Townie]

[quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?