WCHA Expansion Moratorium Lifted

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

Bobby Mo makes a good travel partner with Mercyhurst, and Niagara with Canisius.  Put them both in AHA.  Move UNO to the WCHA and put UAH in the CCHA.  End of story.

Although what do we do with Penn State and Syracuse?  ::deadhorse::

[KeithK]

Tangential question: does the CHA still have it's tournament autobid?  If it does, when will it go away?

[Scersk '97]

I'm right with Jim on this one.  We play Niagara every year on our own accord, so, for completely selfish reasons, why not make them part of the conference schedule?

And then there's this misconception:

I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more.

Niagara would not weaken our SOS any more than having to play Union (usually); Clarkson, Harvard, and RPI (currently); or Brown (almost perpetually).  I think adding Niagara would be like adding another Quinnipiac, a school that, perhaps, doesn't fit with the rest of the league in an academic sense but that would quickly come up to speed in the hockey sense.  If we could drop Union... now that would be a net gain.  RIT would, for unfortunately similar reasons to Union's predicament, not be a good bet.  Since RIT is a D-III school playing up, they can't give out scholarships.  And since they don't have the academic reputation of an Ivy...  etc., etc.

To back up my assumptions, I went back and looked at some historical KRACH data.  I looked at two things:  (1)  how well Niagara would've done in a hypothetical 13-team ECAC, and (2) whether playing Niagara helped or hurt our SOS.

Code Select Expand


Place Cr SOS   Ni KRACH
=================================
2000  4    n/a      n/a
2001 12    n/       n/a
2002 12   88.2  42.82
2003     12   161.5  39.78
2004      8   95.91  83.54
2005     11   118.5  39.22
2006      7   101.5  82.91
2007      7      98.67  96.93
2008      6 93.81  97.14
2009      9 85.9 129.8


(I looked for KRACH all the way to 1997—Niagara's first year—in the hockey-l archives, but I couldn't find it.  Maybe it's buried in info-hockey-l archives that may or may not exist.  If anyone has KRACH rankings earlier than those available from John on TBRW, which run back to 2000, I'd love to see them.)

So, one can look at that table and see that Niagara would not have done horribly in the ECAC over the last few years.  Yes, they seem to have had some sort of collapse after that first appearance in the NCAAs, but they've come back to respectable levels; indeed, they never "would have been" last.

As far as SOS goes, we do seem to take a hit by playing them, but it's not like there's a Michigan available to join the league.  Some ECAC teams have done poorly over the same time period.  We've taken a hit by playing them too.

I don't know.  To my mind, I think that college hockey, as a whole, has a responsibility to save these teams.  The WCHA is doing its part with Bemidji.  AH will probably do its part.  Why shouldn't we?  Not being able to take Bemidji, Niagara is the best of what's left.

[Chris '03]

[quote KeithK]Tangential question: does the CHA still have it's tournament autobid?  If it does, when will it go away?[/quote]

An unsourced comment on an USCHO thread said that recent NCAA legislation allows smaller sports (like hockey) to determine autobids independent of general criteria. If that's the case, the sport's leadership (tourney committee?) could award the bid year after year if it wanted. I'm certain they have the bid this year. I'm not sure where it stands beyond that. I'm guessing they're being strung along year by year though.

[Trotsky]

[quote KeithK]the ECAC home and home round robin is perfect.[/quote]This is true.  The ECAC beats out every other sport at every level for elegance points.

[ithacat]

[quote mnagowski]

RIT--->ECAC (makes sense if you pull in niagara)

I wouldn't mind seeing RIT and Niagara in the league, especially as the game at RIT in the Blue Cross Arena last year had a rather fun atmosphere. But I suspect that RIT is trying to grow its new rivalry with Canisius.[/quote]

The game at BCA last year was fun, other than the fact Cornell fans were largely outnumbered by RIT fans, and the Tigers mauled the Red. :-/ RIT did a good job generating atmosphere -- a bit cheesy perhaps, but the give away orange t-shirts worked and I believe the campus ran complimentary bus service. I do believe RIT's big rival from their old D3 days is Union. Niagara and Canisius are already rivals.

Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

HE = 11 (+1)
ECAC = 12 (net 0)
WCHA = 12 (+2)
AHA = 11 (+1)
CCHA = 12 (nc)


[quote mnagowski][The other thing to consider is that with the recent athletic success that UB has had, coupled with the fact that Buffalo is quickly becoming hockey obsessed, I wouldn't be surprised to see UB try to bring back Div I hockey within five to ten years.[/quote]

I'd love to see it...save that one for the next round of expansion. However, as a MAC school, UB to the CCHA would make sense.

[CUontheslopes]

[quote Scersk '97]I'm right with Jim on this one.  We play Niagara every year on our own accord, so, for completely selfish reasons, why not make them part of the conference schedule?

And then there's this misconception:

I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more.

Niagara would not weaken our SOS any more than having to play Union (usually); Clarkson, Harvard, and RPI (currently); or Brown (almost perpetually).  I think adding Niagara would be like adding another Quinnipiac, a school that, perhaps, doesn't fit with the rest of the league in an academic sense but that would quickly come up to speed in the hockey sense.  If we could drop Union... now that would be a net gain.  RIT would, for unfortunately similar reasons to Union's predicament, not be a good bet.  Since RIT is a D-III school playing up, they can't give out scholarships.  And since they don't have the academic reputation of an Ivy...  etc., etc.

To back up my assumptions, I went back and looked at some historical KRACH data.  I looked at two things:  (1)  how well Niagara would've done in a hypothetical 13-team ECAC, and (2) whether playing Niagara helped or hurt our SOS.

Code Select Expand


Place Cr SOS   Ni KRACH
=================================
2000  4    n/a      n/a
2001 12    n/       n/a
2002 12   88.2  42.82
2003     12   161.5  39.78
2004      8   95.91  83.54
2005     11   118.5  39.22
2006      7   101.5  82.91
2007      7      98.67  96.93
2008      6 93.81  97.14
2009      9 85.9 129.8


(I looked for KRACH all the way to 1997—Niagara's first year—in the hockey-l archives, but I couldn't find it.  Maybe it's buried in info-hockey-l archives that may or may not exist.  If anyone has KRACH rankings earlier than those available from John on TBRW, which run back to 2000, I'd love to see them.)

So, one can look at that table and see that Niagara would not have done horribly in the ECAC over the last few years.  Yes, they seem to have had some sort of collapse after that first appearance in the NCAAs, but they've come back to respectable levels; indeed, they never "would have been" last.

As far as SOS goes, we do seem to take a hit by playing them, but it's not like there's a Michigan available to join the league.  Some ECAC teams have done poorly over the same time period.  We've taken a hit by playing them too.

I don't know.  To my mind, I think that college hockey, as a whole, has a responsibility to save these teams.  The WCHA is doing its part with Bemidji.  AH will probably do its part.  Why shouldn't we?  Not being able to take Bemidji, Niagara is the best of what's left.[/quote]

It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.

Niagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future. Clarkson may be having a down year, but they've made the tourney and been ranked in the top 10. Same goes for a lot of the schools in the ECAC. I'm completely against adding another bottom feeder to the conference. I can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.

[Chris '03]

[quote CUontheslopes] I can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.[/quote]

You make it sound so easy. UNH I could see coming here as a home and home at some point. The others, maybe not ND, are a pipe dream. Between limited NC games, the CHS, the GLI, and desire to maximize gate and never travel, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan aren't coming to Lynah unless it's for the Frozen Four or is somehow exempted. You could probably count on one hand the number of games those three have played in the east in the last five years. You'd probably have to go back a long ways to see the last time they came to an ecac school.

[Josh '99]

[quote ithacat]Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...[/quote]Why does Hockey East get Syracuse?  They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

[Josh '99]

[quote CUontheslopes]It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.[/quote]Vermont has never won so much as a conference championship.  They came in first in the regular season once, they've advanced in the NCAA tournament once.  They're hardly a traditional national power.

[KeithK]

[quote Josh '99][quote CUontheslopes]It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.[/quote]Vermont has never won so much as a conference championship.  They came in first in the regular season once, they've advanced in the NCAA tournament once.  They're hardly a traditional national power.[/quote]
The Cats were a national contender for one brief period of time when Martin St. Louis and Eric Perrin played for them.  Other than that they've been rather mediocre, hardly a powerhouse. See http://www.collegehockeynews.com/reports/teamHistory.php?td=55

[KeithK]

[quote CUontheslopes]NI can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.[/quote]
I agree! And how about I schedule some more dates with rich supermodels and hot Hollywood actresses!

The difficulty of scheduling home games with top teams has been discussed many times on this board.  Wishing for home games against Michigan isn't going to make it happen. No matter how much you may want it to.

[quote CUontheslopes]iagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future.[/quote]
Princeton is good this season and was last season. But they've finished above .500 in one season in the last decade (last year) and other than the Jeff Halpern years have been terrible since before most of us were born. Niagara has more tournament appearances than Princeton (4 to 2, admittedly helped by the CHA bid) and more tournament success (1 win to none).  I see little reason to expect that Princeton would be better over the long haul than Niagara if both played in the same league, unless maybe you consider the head coaches (Gadowsky does seem pretty good).

[Al DeFlorio]

[quote KeithK]And how about I schedule some more dates with rich supermodels and hot Hollywood actresses!
[/quote]
More?::woot::

[Scersk '97]

[quote CUontheslopes]
Niagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future.... I'm completely against adding another bottom feeder to the conference.[/quote]

Other posters have dealt with other portions of what you've written, so I'll restrict myself to this part.

Do I want to add "another" bottom feeder?  (By the way, "another?"  Who was the first one?  The obvious answer is Union, but, as I wrote, that's a different situation entirely.)  No, I would never want to add a bottom feeder to the conference.

What we'll have to disagree on is whether Niagara would be a bottom feeder.  With the (perhaps a bit dubious) caché of ECAC membership, I think Niagara would attract better recruits and soon be a strong member.  Given the potential market (Niagara Falls and Buffalo) and Niagara's seeming commitment to "fielding" a scholarship squad, I think Niagara would be an excellent addition to the league.  If RIT were able to give scholarships, I think adding that adding them and Niagara would be a no-brainer.

[ithacat]

[quote Josh '99][quote ithacat]Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...[/quote]Why does Hockey East get Syracuse?  They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.[/quote]

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school? ;-)