Dartmouth AD apology

[RichH]

Oh, and "opprobrium" is my new favorite word.  I'll give five bucks to anyone who comes up with a cheer that the entire crowd participates in using "opprobrium."  

As in,

"Hey Tobe, we consider you to be an opprobrium to the Cantabridgian hockey tableau...upon further investigation, the Cantabridgian hockey tableau is indecorously execrable!!"

No, you can't use that one.

[Trotsky]

[quote RichH]when talking to a Southerner (Damn Yankee) or in Latin America (Yanquis go home) it's still a term of contempt.[/quote]

This is the central point.  A term is an insult if... it is used as an insult.  The common thread of Southerners and Latin Americans using "Yankee" as a term of derision, while others simultaneously used it as a compliment, is that the former group despises the people they are using it against, while the latter does not.  A word is a word is a word -- only intent makes it mean anything, and X can't tell Y what she means when she uses a word.  When X tries to control Y's speech, X is an officious prick.  X can cluck all she wants, but she can't censor.

Imagine if the energy put into the attack on unfashionable nicknames was channeled into something that actually mattered.  But in order to do that, the "reformers" might have to get off their asses.  ::whistle::

[DeltaOne81]

[quote Trotsky]A term is an insult if... it is used as an insult.[/quote]

False.

I can't say the n-word in a friendly manner, even if I didn't mean it as an insult.

An insult can be turned around when used by those who it was intended against, but that doesn't mean its still not an insult when used by others.

[Jacob 03]

[quote DeltaOne81][quote Trotsky]A term is an insult if... it is used as an insult.[/quote]

False.

I can't say the n-word in a friendly manner, even if I didn't mean it as an insult.

An insult can be turned around when used by those who it was intended against, but that doesn't mean its still not an insult when used by others.[/quote]

And now it should be more painfully clear than ever why the side of the argument that ends up resorting to nursery rhymes even has a foothold. That those objecting to something 1)object for different reasons, and 2)offer little clarity as to why they're objecting only facilitates the cause's dismissal as merely the efforts of "whiny, liberal, PC pussies" by the obstinate.  Way to let the supporters of the "I and most of my neighbors"-as-measure-of-reason test frame the debate.

[marty]

[quote RichH]Oh, and "opprobrium" is my new favorite word.  I'll give five bucks to anyone who comes up with a cheer that the entire crowd participates in using "opprobrium."  

As in,

"Hey Tobe, we consider you to be an opprobrium to the Cantabridgian hockey tableau...upon further investigation, the Cantabridgian hockey tableau is indecorously execrable!!"

No, you can't use that one.[/quote]

Speaking of which, when the hell are the good people of Cambridge going to rise up to take back their (good?) name from those straght A students at Sucks.

[jtwcornell91]

[quote RichH]Ask Michael Richards if it's a hot button in race relations today.  The point is that the Afro-American community adapted this hate term in various ways and degrees,[/quote]

Fixed your post. :-}

[Liz '05]

My favorite parts of the article RichH posted:

[q]There also have been accusations that...the crew team held a party with a "Cowboys and Indians" theme.[/q]

(At the risk of sounding insensitive and racist myself:) Seriously?  As if a Ghetto party isn't similarly offensive.  It's just a theme party, with bad timing, considering recent events on campus.

[q]At the rally, Kohn, a member of both the Crow tribe and of the student group Native Americans at Dartmouth, urged administrators to pursue disciplinary action against offenders.

"We're not reaching for something that's just a temporary cosmetic fix," he said. "We're calling for a lasting solution from the Dartmouth administration."[/q]

I find this an interesting "lasting solution."  I think punishing offenders is a pretty cosmetic fix.  The Dartmouth administration looks like they're accomplishing something, but they aren't really getting to the root of the problem - the underlying insensitivity and racism.  It would take a much more concerted effort to eliminate these attitudes on campus.

[Chris '03]

The President of UND has written to the President of DC asking that the players be treated well and inviting the AD to come see how they treat Indians out there:
http://www.dartblog.com/data/media/ck_jw_sltr.pdf

More coverage from Dartmouth at: http://www.dartblog.com/indianwars.php

[billhoward]

[quote ugarte][quote RichH][quote ugarte]The difference is that a bunch of Irish Catholics in Indiana named the school after themselves. [/quote]

Except the University of Notre Dame was actually founded by Frenchmen.  Their teams officially competed with the names "Catholics" and "Ramblers."  The "Irish" nickname has fuzzy origins, but most likely started as a slur.  "Fighting Irish" became the official nickname in 1927.[/quote]I appreciate the correction but I think my point still stands. Other people used "Irish" as a slur but as the man said,

In narrow, little New England, it began as a slur -- a term of opprobrium. But we took it up and made of it a badge of honor -- a symbol of fidelity and courage to everyone who suffers from discrimination

Notre Dame reappropriated a slur against all Catholics into a rallying cry for Catholics. Calling a team the "Indians" takes a caricature of Native American culture and turns it into a rallying cry for those who created the caricature. It would have been equally offensive if, say, Harvard or Wesleyan had called themselves the "Fighting Irish."[/quote]

a) The Kennedy boys were probably the only Irish admitted to Fair Harvard the first three hundred years. A lot of schools had more than just a Jewish quota. (Isn't there an argument that the rise of schools such as Cornell, Chicago, and Michigan were helped by their relative willingness to admit Jewish students? I've heard that said but also have heard that Cornell carried some sort of quotas into the 1950s.)

b) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071230/quotes
[quote Blazing Saddles]Olson Johnson: All right, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we DON'T WANT THE IRISH. [/quote]

c) [old, old joke] Q: What do you call 11 guys with Polish and Italian names? A: The Fighting Irish of Notre Dame.

But ... good point that Notre Dame turned Irish from slur into rallying cry. Perhaps the other difference is Notre Dame had lots of Irish, most colleges with Indian nicknames didn't have many Indians.

[jtwcornell91]

[quote billhoward]But ... good point that Notre Dame turned Irish from slur into rallying cry. Perhaps the other difference is Notre Dame had lots of Irish, most colleges with Indian nicknames didn't have many Indians.[/quote]

Kupichella is fond of pointing out that UND does have a large American Indian population.  Less fond of pointing out that they're among those protesting the nickname.

[Robb]

[quote jtwcornell91]Kupichella is fond of pointing out that UND does have a large American Indian population.  Less fond of pointing out that they're some of them are among those protesting the nickname.[/quote]

FYP - don't over generalize.

[jtwcornell91]

[quote Robb][quote jtwcornell91]Kupichella is fond of pointing out that UND does have a large American Indian population.  Less fond of pointing out that they're some of them are among those protesting the nickname.[/quote]

FYP - don't over generalize.[/quote]

Obviously, not every American Indian student on campus is protesting.  But it's my understanding that many American Indian organizations have objected:

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/indianprograms.html

I'm not aware of any American Indian organizations at UND that have supported the nickname.

[Rosey]

[quote jtwcornell91]I'm not aware of any American Indian organizations at UND that have supported the nickname.[/quote]
Isn't it usually the case that only those who feel oppressed bother to organize?  I wouldn't take the lack of organization on the other side to mean there are no people on the other side.

Kyle

[Beeeej]

[quote krose][quote jtwcornell91]I'm not aware of any American Indian organizations at UND that have supported the nickname.[/quote]
Isn't it usually the case that only those who feel oppressed bother to organize?  I wouldn't take the lack of organization on the other side to mean there are no people on the other side.[/quote]

Other schools fighting the NCAA's current push against similar nicknames put in serious time and effort to gather Native American groups who were willing to throw their support behind the nickname.  My assumption would be that if there are no such groups organized or vocal in favor of it at ND, it's because ND couldn't find any.

[Rosey]

[quote Beeeej]Other schools fighting the NCAA's current push against similar nicknames put in serious time and effort to gather Native American groups who were willing to throw their support behind the nickname.  My assumption would be that if there are no such groups organized or vocal in favor of it at ND, it's because ND couldn't find any.[/quote]
Touche.

Kyle