Arena's men take the pitch on Monday

[min]

Hmmm.... As someone who suffered a cleats-out tackle like that in a HS soccer game and had to sit out with cast for 4 months, I feel no sympathy for Mastroeni or his red card.

However, it was great to see team USA putting up a tough fight against an overcondifent but often predictable Italy.

Edit:
Judge for yourselves. See the (IMO, reckless) Mastroeni tackle here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJCJKLSIUyE&search=mastroeni%20red

[DeltaOne81]

[quote min]Hmmm.... As someone who suffered a cleats-out tackle like that in a HS soccer game and had to sit out with cast for 4 months, I feel no sympathy for Mastroeni or his red card.

However, it was great to see team USA putting up a tough fight against an overcondifent but often predictable Italy.

Edit:
Judge for yourselves. See the (IMO, reckless) Mastroeni tackle here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJCJKLSIUyE&search=mastroeni%20red[/quote]


Yes, but isn't a sliding tackle, especially as a first time offense, a yellow card at worst?

My high school German tells me that the announcer, an apparently unbiased German, has the comments I can understand translated as follows:

"A red card!"

"Direct to a red card?? Yellow, yes... red??"

"A ______ naturally, but directly to red??"

I can't tell what he says after the replay, maybe he changed his mind, and perhaps JTW can fill us in, but I get:
"Yes, late... I think the red card is ______"


Btw, I think the one thing that turns Americans off from soccer most is the absolute theater of being 'injured'. Virutally anyone whos knocked over is pulled off on a stretcher writhing in agony, only to get the 'magic spray', and be running around fine 30 seconds later. Maybe a minute or two later tops.

Grow a pair, would ya. Soccer needs a diving call, or an 'excessive injury' call like (american footballs) excessive celebration.

[min]

I'm not sure if you mean it or not, delta, but the presumption (held by even veteran soccer analysts) that a player must receive a yellow (or a verbal caution) before getting a red card is mistaken. A reckless tackle is a reckless tackle is a reckless tackle. I don't blame the ref for making that call.

The truth is, Mastroeni didn't have to foul that Italian player. If I remember correctly, the play was still far away from the box and US just picked up some tempo in their game.

[DeltaOne81]

[quote min]I'm not sure if you mean it or not, delta, but the presumption (held by even veteran soccer analysts) that a player must receive a yellow (or a verbal caution) before getting a red card is mistaken. A reckless tackle is a reckless tackle is a reckless tackle. I don't blame the ref for making that call.

The truth is, Mastroeni didn't have to foul that Italian player. If I remember correctly, the play was still far away from the box and US just picked up some tempo in their game.[/quote]

First, I'm far from a soccer expert. I've watched a few world cup games every 4 years and I played in Park & Rec when I was in elementary school. Thats about my qualifications.

But I am basing what I'm saying off of the announcers during the game, the guys back in the studio afterwards, *including* an Italian commentator they had, and what I can understand of the German announcer in the video clip in this thread. It seems to be that they thought that straight to a red was too far too fast.

Yes, I understand that there's no requirement to have a yellow before a red - say, if you elbow someone in the face and leave them bleeding - but it does seem to me that it should be something of a 'flagrant foul' to go straight to a red. A slide tackle, while dangerous, appears not to meet that qualification from what I can discern of the people who know more than me.

If I wasn't at work for 95% of the matches, I'd watch and see what slide tackles usually draw. If slide tackles draw red in other game 50% of the time or so, fine. If they typically draw at least one yellow first, then the standards is that game were unfair.


P.S. I'm pretty sure had an Italian player been elbowed in the face, he would have collapsed on the field, they would have brought out a stretcher, and then an ambulance, with a few tries with the defibrilators to make a good show. After driving him to the side line and announcing a time of death, they would use some of their magic spray and he'd be back on the field 30 seconds later.

[cth95]

I agree with you about the theatrics.  I played soccer through high school, and our team was continually one of the top-ranked in CT, winning the State Championship one year.  One big reason we won all the time is because we were tougher than the other teams.  We ran through everyone to win all of the 50/50 balls and sucked it up if we got hit.  I will never forget one of our fullbacks catching a rocket of a freekick in the groin and actually playing the ball out before he collapsed (not saying I could ever do that or would expect anyone to). Once he caught his breath he was right back playing again. If one of us had ever acted like these crybabies our coach would probably have made us run laps while the game was still going on.  

I think soccer is a great sport, and I want to enjoy watching the games, but every time a player acts like they are done for the season after a little trip or slide-tackle, I feel like shutting off the TV.  If the hockey players who just finished playing for the Stanley Cup acted like many of these soccer players, there would never be more than a couple players skating at a time as the rest of them lie scattered about the ice lot carnage from a bomb blast.

The only somewhat acceptable reason I can think of for this ridiculuous behavior is because there are almost no subs in international soccer.  I imagine the players take a break whenever they can.  I have never been able to figure out why subs are limited, and wonder if the game would be faster with more vertical play if 8 of the players didn't have to pace themselves for the whole game.

[nyc94]

[quote cth95]The only somewhat acceptable reason I can think of for this ridiculuous behavior is because there are almost no subs in international soccer.  I imagine the players take a break whenever they can.  I have never been able to figure out why subs are limited, and wonder if the game would be faster with more vertical play if 8 of the players didn't have to pace themselves for the whole game.[/quote]

Well, in soccer when you get the red card you're gone for the game and you don't get replaced unlike a two or five minute power play.

[cth95]

[q]DeltaOne81

Yes, but isn't a sliding tackle, especially as a first time offense, a yellow card at worst?

My high school German tells me that the announcer, an apparently unbiased German, has the comments I can understand translated as follows:

"A red card!"

"Direct to a red card?? Yellow, yes... red??"

"A ______ naturally, but directly to red??"

I can't tell what he says after the replay, maybe he changed his mind, and perhaps JTW can fill us in, but I get:
"Yes, late... I think the red card is ______"[/q]


Btw, I think the one thing that turns Americans off from soccer most is the absolute theater of being 'injured'. Virutally anyone whos knocked over is pulled off on a stretcher writhing in agony, only to get the 'magic spray', and be running around fine 30 seconds later. Maybe a minute or two later tops.
I think the TV channel shown is Swiss, so I would think the announcer is unbiased (or neutral?, sorry, I couldn't resist). I can't get every word, but on the first replay he twice says  "Yeah, sure it was a hard tackle" with an inflection indicating he still doesn't think it deserved red.  On the last replay though, where there is a better view of the cleats hitting the Italian's shins (which I hadn't seen in previous replays), the announcer changes his mind and inflection and says "Yeah, doch (after all), I guess red is zutreffen? (correct)"

[cth95]

[quote nyc94][quote cth95]The only somewhat acceptable reason I can think of for this ridiculuous behavior is because there are almost no subs in international soccer.  I imagine the players take a break whenever they can.  I have never been able to figure out why subs are limited, and wonder if the game would be faster with more vertical play if 8 of the players didn't have to pace themselves for the whole game.[/quote]

Well, in soccer when you get the red card you're gone for the game and you don't get replaced unlike a two or five minute power play.[/quote]

I was just referring to subs in general.  They are only allowed 3 per game so at least 8 guys have to play the whole game.  I have no problem with the yellow and red card rules as long as they are given out legitimately.  I'm sure, because of the harsh effect on a team of losing a player for the entire game, players embellish the fouls to try to get stronger calls.  I just think that doing it is a bunch of crap.  Maybe they could start giving yellow cards for exaggeration and delay of game.

[jtwcornell91]

Yeah, I've watched the youtube clip, which was definitely from a Swiss TV station, and the commentator was amazed that the card was red and not yellow at first, but after he saw the replay, AFAICT, he admitted the red card was called for (although I could also not make out that last adjective).

[nyc94]

[quote cth95]players embellish the fouls to try to get stronger calls.  I just think that doing it is a bunch of crap.  Maybe they could start giving yellow cards for exaggeration and delay of game.[/quote]

Am I the only one that thinks Wisconsin hockey watches game film of international soccer matches?

[Molgestron]

[quote DeltaOne81][quote min]Soccer needs a diving call, or an 'excessive injury' call like (american footballs) excessive celebration.[/quote]

There is in fact a rule that any player diving gets a yellow card. The problem is the ref's don't use it often enough. If they were stronger with it, the game would be a lot more enjoyable. Watching the teams that don't roll around and cover their faces after the slightest touch has been much more fun than the other games.

I forget where I read it (though I think it was SkySports' website) but apparently the refs were told before the tournament to clamp down and give reds for any two-footed spikes up tackle and that's why the call on Mastroeni was made. Sure it was a makeup call, but I think most foreigners view that call as correct.

[min]

[quote cth95]  Maybe they could start giving yellow cards for exaggeration and delay of game.[/quote]

They already do. Players who dive repeatedly, especially inside the penalty area, are given yellow cards.
Delay of game calls are usually given to goalkeepers, when they take their time in kicking off after the ball has gone out. However, these and other delays are normally compensated by the stoppage time that is added at the end of regulation.

[profudge]

Having reffed soccer for 30 years locally and played for about 30 years IMHO the "Red"  was a good call -  Paulo is a pro and this was way up in our offensive zone  and he was obviously late and then went into the tackle with both feet cleats on and into the opposing player with no, even marginal attempt to play the ball only to take out the man  - - at least in hind sight -  and if you notice the referee is within 5-8 yards of the play and had a fine view and had no hesitation at all on the call!  

There are occasssions where dual yellows are given  one for the foul and one for the acting, diving on the same occassion.     Unless overly done the diving call is one of the hardest to determine from an officials point of view.

Hope we play even better today  !  GO USA!

[DeltaOne81]

See, its not the 'diving' so much - the fall is real. Its the acting after the fall. The writhing the pain, the bringing out of the stretcher, the being *strapped down on the stretcher*.

The fall is legit, its not a dive. Its acting up a storm afterwards though.

Short of issuing yellow cards for it, I think there should be a rule that if a person doesn't walk off the field under their own power, they must stay out of the game for 2 minutes. If they are carried off (as opposed to walking off with assistance), then they must stay off for 10 minutes. And they cannot be subbed for during that time frame (or if they are they can't return - I think thats true of subs anyway, maybe?).

That way, if you're going to act like a baby and be carried off strapped to a stretcher for a scratch, you better really need it. Otherwise, you're hurting your team.

I also think its interesting insight that perhaps they use it as an excuse to get some rest. If thats so, they should really reconsider the subbing rules, as the players are making a mockery of sport to get a time out.


Italy leads the Czech Republic 1-0, but we trail Ghana 1-0.

[DeltaOne81]

US ties it at 1 in the 43rd minute. Our first goal that wasn't another team's own-goal this tournament.

But Ghanna strikes back in stoppege time, apparently on a penalty kick (I assume thats what 'PEN' means)

Scores at the half:
ITA 1  0 CZE
GHA 2  1 USA