Interesting NCAA mascot policy

[RichH]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050805/ap_on_sp_co_ne/ncaa_indian_nicknames

[Q]Nicknames or mascots deemed "hostile or abusive" would not be allowed by teams on their uniforms or other clothing beginning with any NCAA tournament after Feb. 1, said Harrison, the University of Hartford's president.

The NCAA plans to ban schools using Indian nicknames from hosting postseason events. Harrison said schools with such mascots that have already been selected as tournament sites would be asked to cover any offensive logos.

Such logos also would be prohibited at postseason games on cheerleader and band uniforms starting in 2008.[/Q]

Of course, the biggest thing that comes to mind is the 2006 West Regional held at the Ralph at North Dakota.  Also, it seems that the Fighting Sioux have a choice of either changing their uniforms, or start sucking.

[Harrier]

the guy who ponied up the dough for the arena specifically laid out that they cannot for any reason change the "Fighting Sioux" or the logo.

[KeithK]

True, but Ralph Engelstad died in 2002.  His estate/heirs might still be willing to fight the issue but then again they might not.

An interesting bit from the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad) on him, relating to the arena:
[q]One of the more interesting developments of this was the placing of The Fighting Sioux logo in all 11,000+ seats and in a large marble display in the front of the building, to make removal of the logo very costly if attempted.[/q]
I've stated elsewhere on this forum what I think of this policy and we don't need to rehash.  But this quote from the Yahoo article shows how ridiculous some of this can be:
[q]Not all schools with Indian-related nicknames would be on that list. NCAA officials said some schools using the Warrior nickname do not use Indian symbols and would not be affected.[/q]If a school does not use an Indian mascot/trappings, how can anyone even remotely think that the term "warrior" (not even remotely an Indian term, derived from Old North French according to dictionary.com) is offensive?  It's sad that the article or the NCAA feels it necessary to specifically exempt "Warriors".

[DeltaOne81]

You could think it, but it'd be silly, I agree with ya there, Keith (  :-O )

The only thing I have to say is that anything the helps prevent a team having home ice advantage is the postseason is fine by me. Unless of course they just replace it with Minnesota. Hmmm, how to convince the NCAA that Gophers is a racially insensitive term. Has any race in history ever been referred to as gophers by anyone other group in any language? ;-)

[ajec1]

I don't know if this came out in the previous discussion, but the Fighting Sioux logo was designed by a Native American artist...hardly a degrading logo (ie Cleveland Indians).... Although "Sioux" had negative connotations back in the day, I believe that the descendents are members of the Dakota-Sioux Nation. Fighting Sioux is hardly along the offensive lines of Red Raiders, Redskins, etc. Hopefully this doesn't force them to change a thing, I can't imagine NoDak as anything other than the Fighting Sioux.

[KeithK]

I find it unlikely that this NCAA action would cause NoDak to change it's nickname, although it certainlywil be cited as further evidence for those on campus who are pushing for a change.  More likely if this mandate is enforced the team would simply unveil a new tournament jersey which lacked the logo and simply had North Dakota across the front.  Follow the letter of the rule while creating the possibility of new merchandise sales.

If I'm right, we can only pray that these jerseys would be less ugly than Michigan's alternates.  Then again, I think that's pretty much guaranteed.

[ugarte]

[Q]KeithK Wrote:
If a school does not use an Indian mascot/trappings, how can anyone even remotely think that the term "warrior" (not even remotely an Indian term, derived from Old North French according to dictionary.com) is offensive?  It's sad that the article or the NCAA feels it necessary to specifically exempt "Warriors". [/q]Probably because of schools that used to use Native American symbols in conjunction with the name (not that I can think of any offhand). That said, I agree with you about the use of the word "Warriors".

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

I remember reading somewhere that several members of UNDs athletic teams who are of Sioux descent when asked were extremely proud of the name.

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]ajec1 Wrote:

Fighting Sioux is hardly along the offensive lines of Red Raiders, Redskins, etc. Hopefully this doesn't force them to change a thing, I can't imagine NoDak as anything other than the Fighting Sioux. [/q]

To be fair, the term Red Raiders had nothing to do historically with native americans, although apparently it was assumed so by some people in the middle because a logo was made with an indian head. Among theories advanced is that Red Raiders referred to their ability to defeat the Big Red ( first, yeah right, second, talk about an inferiority complex), however:

[Q]In 2001, a group of students approached the administration with the concern that the name "Red Raiders" still implied a Native American mascot. The school agreed to drop the word "Red" from the team name starting in the 2001-02 school year; however, its has been revealed that the "Red" moniker was a reference to the Vikings, yet it has not been reattached to the nickname.[/Q]

[RichH]

My high school team's nickname was the Red Raiders.  The mascot was some sort of fox-like creature.

No wonder I associate the average Colgate fan's maturity level to be a wee bit low.

[Will]

[Q]DeltaOne81 Wrote:

Among theories advanced is that Red Raiders referred to their ability to defeat the Big Red ( first, yeah right, second, talk about an inferiority complex), however:

[Q2]In 2001, a group of students approached the administration with the concern that the name "Red Raiders" still implied a Native American mascot. The school agreed to drop the word "Red" from the team name starting in the 2001-02 school year; however, its has been revealed that the "Red" moniker was a reference to the Vikings, yet it has not been reattached to the nickname.[/Q]
[/q]

So, instead of insulting Native Americans, they instead were insulting Scandinavians?  (And perhaps Minnesotans?)

[ajec1]

[Q]Will Wrote:

 [Q2]DeltaOne81 Wrote:

Among theories advanced is that Red Raiders referred to their ability to defeat the Big Red ( first, yeah right, second, talk about an inferiority complex), however:

[Q2]In 2001, a group of students approached the administration with the concern that the name "Red Raiders" still implied a Native American mascot. The school agreed to drop the word "Red" from the team name starting in the 2001-02 school year; however, its has been revealed that the "Red" moniker was a reference to the Vikings, yet it has not been reattached to the nickname.[/Q]
[/Q]
So, instead of insulting Native Americans, they instead were insulting Scandinavians?  (And perhaps Minnesotans?)[/q]

I guess that I will have to add that to the list "Why Colgate Sucks"
1. They play hockey in a dignified pole barn (how dignified is up for debate)
2. They had the worst poser-punk cover band I have ever heard playing before last years game ( "OMG I love Good Charlotte!")
3. In my experience, Colgate Plus Whitening toothpaste made no discernable difference in the whiteness of my teeth.
4. "Red Raiders" insults the heritage of 2/3 of my home state, which while I am not of Scandinavian descent,  is insulting because you don't see Minnesotans mocking their heritage (although the St. Cloud State Fightin' Tartar does have a ring to it...)

[ftyuv]

Are we still allowed to sing "Far above Cayuga's waters," or do we have to change the words to "Far above the Non-Offensively-Named Lake" now?  And is Big Red offensive because it implies that Native Americans (or Vikings) are fat?

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]RichH Wrote:

No wonder I associate the average Colgate fan's maturity level to be a wee bit low.[/q]

Sure it doesn't have more to do with the flying dildo?

[ninian '72]

The Michigan alternates look as if someone associated with a diner or Formica designed them.  What were they thinking?