OT: The Yankees

[Trotsky]

When my team does it, it's "competing."  When your team does it, it's "cheating."

[KeithK]

No, the *right* move (as in, legal and gving your team the best chance to win) would have been to steamroll Arroyo and hope that he dropped the ball.

I find it a stretch to say that what he did do was "cheating".  It was interference and it got called.  No difference from a hockey player hooking his man blatantly in front of the ref.  We certainly don't call that cheating, just a penalty.  What A-Rod did in the heat of the moment might have been dumb, but it wasn't cheating.

As for Fred's question about "Would Ted or Mickey have done that?"  How about we pick another all-time great.  What would Ty Cobb have done?  He probably wouldn't have swatted at the glove in that situation.  The old Peach probably would've run Arroyo over and then "happened" to stomp on his left hand as he continued on his way to first.  Maybe stopping briefly to kick the fallen pitcher in the head.  (No, I don't think this would constitute good sportsmanship or a good example.  But the image of this in my head is too perfect to not post it. :-D )

[kaelistus]

CowbellGuy, That was my point in paragraph 3. Why lie your way around a stat when the real values convey the same message?

And Trotsky. I couldn't disagree more. I want my team to play a clean game.  When my team cheats, I'd like to believe that I'd be criticizing it too.  

[KeithK]

[q]What about the 5th down game? The crowd around here at the moment sounds to me like it would have been appropriate, in fact preferable, to refuse to admit that mistake and to try to win it. Ridiculous. Believe it or not, there *is* something more important than winning. Or is that no longer true after about the $150 million mark?[/q]I don't think it would have been inappropriate for Cornell to have accepted the results of the 5th down game.  It's not like Cornell was intentionally trying to confuse the referees so that they didn't know what down it was.  (Or at least not in the story I've heard.)  Things happened on the field and it wouldn't have been wrong to accept the results as they happened.  

Now, in this particular instance the 5th down occurred at the end of the game and quite clearly influenced the outcome of the game.  But what if the same thing had happened in the middle of the second quarter?  Cornell scores on the next series and wins by less than a touchdown.  Should we then offer to forfeit the game on that basis?  Or ask for a do-over?

Lot's of incorrect calls are made in sports.  Often the people involved know that the call is wrong.  Have you ever seen a second baseman tell the umpire "No, he was safe.  Missed the tag."  Or a runner call himself out for leaving early on a sacrifice fly?  No.  The umpire makes the call - it's part of the game.

Cheating means: "To deceive by trickery; swindle" and " To violate rules deliberately, as in a game" (dictionary.com).  Accepting a bad call is doing neither (though I leave it up to you to decide whether it is "To act dishonestly; practice fraud").  Neither is committing a penalty in hockey or trying to knock the ball out of a fielder's glove in the heat of the moment.  

[Drew]

[Q]BCrespi Wrote:

 Alright, that's it.  I've had enough of this crap.  A-Rod's slap was the right thing to do, and anybody who thinks differently, is just like one of those moronic Red Sox trying to take pot-shots at him (for reasons I don't know.  What has he ever done to anyone?  Seriously, besides make a great deal of money and, outside of a year and a week be the best player in the game.).  Game is on the line, what are you gonna do?  Just let yourself get tagged out?  End your team's season?  I mean, sure, it looked bad, especially because it was kind of a girl-like slapping motion, but that surely shouldn't be the point here.  Here, to put it in this board's perspective, if our belived Red were down 2-1 with 50 sec to go in the ECACHL championship and we had McKee pulled and Cavanagh was racing in alone with only Downs chasing him, would you not expect him to do everything in his power, including tackling, punching, maiming, even slapping to keep his team alive?  Of course we would.  Get out behind your red(sox) tinted glasses and look at it from a serious baseball (sports?) perspective.  It was the right play, and would only have been better had he lowered his shoulder and put Bronson (I have the strangest hair in the league) Arroyo into right field, but to his credit, Arroyo stayed out of the baseline.  What would you really want him to do in that situation?[/q]


No questions asked, he should have gone through Arroyo like shit through a goose....He should have pasted that toothpick....I was embarrassed for A-Rod....That could have been a defining moment for him as a Yank,  whether he was out or safe.

[cth95]

I didn't realize I would spark such a debate with my E-Rod comments.  My main point wasn't to show whether or not he cheated, but to show that he did it in such a childish, effeminant manner.  I agree with some of the other posts that if someone is going to tag you out you either lower your shoulder and level the guy in the hopes that the ball will get knocked loose, or as in the case in the ALCS, get yourself into a pickle so the other runner(s) can advance while the fielders waste time trying to tag you out.  I think  the lack of support for A-Rod by his teammates in the media may support that he is not thought of as a true, hard-nosed Yankee like Jeter, Bernie, or Tito.  Even we die-hard Sox fans have the utmost respect for these guys.

[Jordan 04]

[Q]cth95 Wrote:

hard-nosed Yankee like Jeter, Bernie, or Tito. [/q]

Puente or Jackson?

[jtwcornell91]

[Q]KeithK Wrote:

Now, in this particular instance the 5th down occurred at the end of the game and quite clearly influenced the outcome of the game.  But what if the same thing had happened in the middle of the second quarter?  Cornell scores on the next series and wins by less than a touchdown.  Should we then offer to forfeit the game on that basis?  Or ask for a do-over?[/q]

What if we spiked the ball on 3rd (really 4th) down and scored a touchdown on the next play?  And then went on to win the national championship?

[cth95]

I was just thinking of current Yankees.  Before anyone jumps on me, I meant Tino, not Tito.

[KeithK]

Of course you meant Tino.  But you still wrote Tito.  :-P

The difference, of course, is that Jeter, Williams and Martinez all have a longer history with the team and have four rings.   Rodriguez does not.

BTW - you can't get into a pickle when running to first base.  

[DeltaOne81]

Yeah, Jacob, I threw in some potshots because I can't help it with the Yanks . I shouldn't, but I was just appalled that someone would defend it.

Let me explain what I think is one crucial difference here. There are two kinds of 'breaking the rules', whether we like it or not. There's breaking the rules in a way that is "typical" for the sport and for the flow of the game and then there's "bush league."

Hooking a guy on a breakaway or to the empty net, pulling down a guy of freezing the puck by falling on it, 'accidently' knocking off the net if you're pressured. Those are unfortunately (or often not even unfortunately) parts of the game of hockey. It's done, it's accepted. You do it, people do it, and they accept the results, you take your chances.

For baseball, similar things would be sliding too hard at a 2B/SS trying to turn the double play (or sliding at him even if not on the bag), not moving out of the way (or even moving into the way) of an inside pitch, diving somewhat out of the baseline to avoid a tag, occassional beanballs (sadly), maybe a few more.

Those are things that happen, and if you tune into watch a game and none of them happen, it's a surprisingly clean game.

Then there's bush league, which is exactly what ARod did. Slapping the ball out of the glove, using a corked bat or juiced ball, sandpaper, etc. I'd love to add steroids to this, but it'd unfortunately debatable where that falls today. It's things that you don't see, you shouldn't see, and are just downright bush league.

A hockey equivalent? How about a guy defending a 2 on 1 break, even against an empty net maybe, who dives at the puck carriers feet, grabs the puck and tosses it into the crowd? Hey, he was just doing whatever he had to do to win the game! No, bull. That's on the same level as the slap, because it is unsportsmanlike, inappropriate, and bush league.

It'd be one thing to try to get the puck away with your stick and another to grab it with your hand and chuck it away. You could argue that they're almost the same thing, but everyone who knows the sports knows that you just crossed a major line of behavior. Same thing with the difference between charging a defensive player in the baseline vs. slapping the ball away. It's dirty, ugly, cheap, and wrong.

As far as the 5th down game, let me clarify. I didn't mean that it would be wrong to not say a thing, I understand that. But, what I meant when I said "refuse to admit", was that when the other team and ref argue back, you deny it, say it's not true, even though you know you're wrong. Doing something that you *know* is wrong and not part of the game, just to try to win.

[Jerseygirl]

who's "Tito?"

[Jerseygirl]

Oh wow, there were a lot of posts while I was at my meeting...

[cth95]

That's true in the case of 1st base since there is a force, but A-Rod could have made Bronson come after him or eventually throw to 1st and bought Jeter time.

[Dpperk29]

what if the ball blew up half way to a reciever? let's be reasonable