OT: The Yankees

[BCrespi]

OK, and don't get too nuts here buddy, we're having a good-natured conversation about sports.  I understand people get touchy with the Yankees, but that's just the way it goes.

OK, so here's a hypothetical.  If a guy is attempting to stretch a single into a double and the shortstop receives the ball from the right fiedler slightly away from the bag, as he's diving to get back and make the tag his glove is exposed, and if the runner adjusts slightly he can slide hard into the glove, with a good chance at knocking the ball loose.  Judging by your previous statement, i think you'd call this play fair, not "cheating" or "bush league" and I would indeed agree with you.  This is a natural part of the game.  This being said, I don't consider what A-Rod did to be incredibly different save the fact that he looked like a little bitch doing it (I think that's clear to everybody).  The ump definitely made the right call, but I don't think he should be lambasted the way he has been.

I guess we all have our own opinoin of it and of course this can't be solved, but here's to a new baseball season.  Either way, that can't be bad.  And you know what, in most years I would never say this, but let's go Mets, too (at least until late October).  I like their young players and am glad we have Pedro in the NY media market.  Nothing but entertaining, that guy.

[KeithK]

[q]I don't consider what A-Rod did to be incredibly different save the fact that he looked like a little bitch doing it (I think that's clear to everybody). The ump definitely made the right call, but I don't think he should be lambasted the way he has been. [/q]It's not a big deal.  If this play had happened in a June game between the Yanks and Red Sox it would've been talked about for a day or so and then forgotten.  If it had happened in a June game between the Texas Rangers and Kansas City Royals it would've merited a five second clip halfway through SportsCenter.  We're only talking about it because it happened late in a big game in October.  Actually, I suspect we're only still talking about it because the Red Sox beat the Cardinals the following week.

[Steve M]

[Q]mjh89 Wrote:

World Series since 1918:
Yankees: 26
Sox: 1

Go Yanks.[/q]

World Series Titles since 2000:
Defending Champion Red Sox: 1
Yankees: 0


:-D

[ugarte]

Delta: I do not want my teams to go gently into that offseason. Let's not treat a simple breach of the rules like the first step on the way to Gomorrah. (That said, my team has typically gently gone by the end of April.)

[q]Keith K wrote: If this play had happened in a June game between the Yanks and Red Sox it would've been talked about for a day or so and then forgotten.[/q]

Amen. I can't believe that the play gets this much attention. It was against the rules; the ump made the right call. End of story. (peterg is the only person who figured out a better solution for Rodriguez, but I'm not sure that momentum would have allowed A-Rod to make that choice.) The slap was no more or less illegal than the inexplicably accepted blocking the plate that catchers do all the time before the ball arrives or the serial rubbing out of the lines of the batters box.

If Arroyo were in the baseline, A-Rod would have nailed him; he wasn't, so A-Rod slapped at the glove. I'm not sure what was so fey about it. First, Arroyo dropped the ball, so if A-Rod was acting wimpy, Arroyo is the guy who really got punked. Second, he was running forward and had to bring his hand down on the glove. I don't know what else he could have done.

[jtwcornell91]

[Q]DeltaOne81 Wrote:
For baseball, similar things would be sliding too hard at a 2B/SS trying to turn the double play (or sliding at him even if not on the bag), not moving out of the way (or even moving into the way) of an inside pitch, diving somewhat out of the baseline to avoid a tag, occassional beanballs (sadly), maybe a few more.

Those are things that happen, and if you tune into watch a game and none of them happen, it's a surprisingly clean game.

Then there's bush league, which is exactly what ARod did. Slapping the ball out of the glove, using a corked bat or juiced ball, sandpaper, etc. I'd love to add steroids to this, but it'd unfortunately debatable where that falls today. It's things that you don't see, you shouldn't see, and are just downright bush league.[/q]

How about freezing halfway between first and second when you're the lead out on a would-be inning-ending double play. then sticking your ass in front of the throw to first so the ball hits it and your teammate scores from third?  And does it change anything if the shortstop dropped a line drive on purpose to make the double play?  And is everyone else too young to remember what I'm talking about?

[Jacob 03]

You know, John, not being born at the time doesn't preclude one from hearing the story later on.  Plus, Reggie Jackson stories are rather prevalent.  

[BCrespi]

You can consider those tickets for next year's playoffs as good as gone buddy.
(Not woofing, just being not funny, Gods)

[Steve M]

I guess it's a good thing you didn't know I was a Red Sox fan a month and a half ago. ;-)

[mjh89]

Nothing more than a hic-up in a history of failure, my friend.

[KeithK]

Personally I think Jackson's actions were brilliant.  Wasn't it more his hip than his ass though?

Dropping a line drive on purpose to set up a double play isn't even remotely cheating or unfair.  It's part of the game.  You take your chances that you can get both guys and not have the ball skitter away or make a bad throw.  Somewhat risky (giving up the sure out) which is why you don't see it more often.

There's a similar play that I'd like to see try in the big leagues which I've gotten to work several times in my softball league.  Playing third with runners on first and second and less than two outs ai intentionally let the ball drop after the umpire has called the infield fly rule.  Often enough the guy at second thinks he has to run and you get an easy double play.  Of course, I've also had the ball skip away (don't do it with a lefty - too much spin on a pop to the lleft side) giving the runners a free base.  So you takes your chances...

[Steve M]

Live in 20th century history all you want.  All that matters now is that I've celebrated a World Series title more recently than you. :-}

[Steve M]

The correct application of the infield fly rule is to declare the batter out and the play effectively dead.  If any runners go, the ump should simply instruct them to return to their bases.

[KeithK]

That's very much not how I learned the rule years ago and not how I've seen it applied and discussed through years.  Looking at the official rule book (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/game_preliminaries_3.jsp) seems to verify your application though (6.05 l).  Then again, I can't seem to even find the section where "Infield Fly" is defined; rule 6.05 makes two references to "Infield Fly" but doesn't define it.

It's entirely possible that either 1) the rule was changed at some point or 2) the way I learned it was wrong.  Either way, this example points to an important lesson of Internet posting - before snapping back at someone for a post that you think is wrong (and I was pretty sure that Steve was wrong on this) check available online sources to be sure.  :-)

[jtwcornell91]

[Q]KeithK Wrote:
Dropping a line drive on purpose to set up a double play isn't even remotely cheating or unfair.  It's part of the game.  You take your chances that you can get both guys and not have the ball skitter away or make a bad throw.  Somewhat risky (giving up the sure out) which is why you don't see it more often.[/q]

It's not cheating but if the umpire judges it to be intentional, he has the option of ruling the batter out and the ball dead.  Which is probably what should have happened on the Lopes/Jackson play.  Of course, I was a Yankee fan at the time, so I was pretty happy with the end result.

[Will]

[Q]KeithK Wrote:

Then again, I can't seem to even find the section where "Infield Fly" is defined; rule 6.05 makes two references to "Infield Fly" but doesn't define it.[/q]

"Infield fly" is defined under (duh) Section 2.00: Definition of Terms:

[q] An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule. When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare "Infield Fly, if Fair." The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul. If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly. On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire's judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately. When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05 (L). The infield fly rule takes precedence.[/q]

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp