Cornell vs. Albany 5/11 - NCAA Lacrosse First Round

[marty]

Too many experts over there. I'll stick with the duffers right here.

I thank you! *takes bow*

I like and value our lax community here.

As someone who doesn't understand lax almost at all... nice here.

Like, I think I get it, and then something happens during a game, mostly with substitutions and such, where I just throw up my hands.

But I still like watching it.

As someone who hasn't seen a live game in ages I feel that my lack of understanding of player substitutions and who can play when and where is overwhelming.  TV coverage can't possibly teach me anything about these two.  

I still enjoy watching, too.

[Swampy]

Too many experts over there. I'll stick with the duffers right here.

I thank you! *takes bow*

I like and value our lax community here.

As someone who doesn't understand lax almost at all... nice here.

Like, I think I get it, and then something happens during a game, mostly with substitutions and such, where I just throw up my hands.

But I still like watching it.

As someone who hasn't seen a live game in ages I feel that my lack of understanding of player substitutions and who can play when and where is overwhelming.  TV coverage can't possibly teach me anything about these two.  

I still enjoy watching, too.

TL;DR: Read the rulebook!

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them.

In today's game, there are 7 different positions: goal keeper (GK), close defense (CD), defensive midfield ("rope unit" or DM), offensive midfield, attack, FOGO & face-off wings:

• GK: uses a short stick with a big basket, usually stands in the "crease" in front of the goal
• CD: 3 players with long sticks who primarily defend their goal by marking the other team's attack
• DM: 2 players with short sticks (SSDM) plus 1 player with a long stick (LSM). They're often called a "rope unit" because they act in unison, as if tied by a rope. The LSM usually plays between the 2 SSDM's.
• Offensive midfield: 3 players with short sticks who participate in the offense, trying to score.
• Attack: 3 players with short sticks who usually play closest to the opponent's goal and who typically do most of their team's scoring.
• FOGO: A specialist who takes faceoffs ("FaceOff, Get Off" ). Two wing players typically participate in the faceoff too.
  

Only 10 players per team are allowed on the field at one time. A section in the middle of the field is for faceoffs, and each team can have 3 players in that area. The FOGO's are in the center of the field, and the face-off wings are on the sides. During a faceoff, the two FOGOs face each other with the ball between the baskets of their sticks. When the referee blows the whistle, wings are free to rush towards the center, while the two FOGOs try to control the ball by clamping it and either gaining possession of it by scooping it up or raking it towards one of their wings. Typically, the three teammates are treated as a unit, they all get off the field after their work is done, and three new players are substituted in.

I'm not 100% sure of this, because rules have changed since I played and I haven't finished reading the current rulebook. But I believe one or both of a team's faceoff wings can use a long stick. Other things being equal, long sticks can help when trying to pick up a ground ball, but they are harder to keep from an opponent trying to knock the ball out of your stick.

Once a team has gained possession, the referee declares this to be the case, and the other players may enter the faceoff area.

But the middle line restricts this. Each team must have at least 4 players in their defensive half (GK + 3*CD) and 3 players in their offensive half (3 x Attack). Call this "the 4/3 rule." Typically, only midfielders play on both sides of the middle line. In the old days, midfielders were almost always 2-ways (both uphill! ::dribble:; in other words, they played both defense and offense. Nowadays, they typically specialize in offense or defense. Hence, once the ball changes possession between teams, and it's on a team's offensive side, you'll usually see teams substituting. E.g., if a GK makes a save, his defensive midfielders will help clear the ball by bringing it into the offensive zone. Then they'll get off, while the team substitutes offensive midfielders for the defensive ones. Then the opponent will typically substitute as well, bringing on defensive middies to substitute for the offensive middies who lost possession thanks to the GK's heroics.

Because of the 10-player limit, teams can't substitute before the original player gets off the field. So, for example, if a LSM/Defender like Staub catches the ball on a clear and runs into the offensive zone with it, the coach might decide to let him stay in the offensive zone because the offensive middie he was guarding before is now guarding him, and the coach has confidence in Staub's ability to outplay the offensive specialist who's now playing defense. Similarly, some middies are good both ways, and this presents a timing problem for teams over-relying on specialized middies.

The offside rule is related. Because of the number of players allowed on either half of the field, you'll sometimes see a long-stick defender crossing over the midfield stripe when this gives his team an offensive advantage. Because the extra player could violate the 4/3 rule, one of the defensive middies must stay in the defensive zone. Typically, you'll see them on the other side of the field holding their stick up, so their teammates and the referees see them, and their team won't be called offside.

You'll also see laughable situations where, for example, a defensive middie crossed into the offensive zone as part of a clear and would ordinarily substitute off for an offensive middie. Instead, the defensive middie, who has good offensive skills, may fake getting off the field -- running towards the substitution box and then turning around -- so that the opposing team's offensive middie, who is now playing defense, starts running towards the substitution box but has to turn around, lest his team be a man down during the substitution. A few years ago, in the ILT at Columbia and against Yale, this was a hilarious sideshow during the game.

Because midfielders typically are the only ones who play on both halves of the field, they run more than any other position. For this reason, coaches substitute them more often. Cornell typically runs two midfield lines, and the club lacrosse team I played on ran 3 or 4. In important games, the 1st & 2nd got most of the playing time, but because club lacrosse is more recreational, the rest of us would get a few minutes in most games. (And as I improved, I became the 1st player off the bench to join the 2nd midfield line. ::banana:. But even then, because I was still learning the game (who isn't?), my stick skills were far behind my defensive skills. So, I mainly specialized in fast defense (e.g., knocking guys over as they were receiving a pass, etc.).

Of course, defenders and attackmen also get tired. So, you'll also see them being substituted, but much less frequently. Expect Cornell's 3 attack masters to play full games next weekend, depending on the game situation, matchups, etc. Similarly, expect and hope for Cornell's ball-movement wizardry to wear down the other teams' defenses, leaving their coaches with difficult decisions: Do I substitute for this guy to give him a rest, or do I keep him on the field because he's the best player I have to guard the man he's been guarding?

I hope this helps.

[BearLover]

Too many experts over there. I'll stick with the duffers right here.

I thank you! *takes bow*

I like and value our lax community here.

As someone who doesn't understand lax almost at all... nice here.

Like, I think I get it, and then something happens during a game, mostly with substitutions and such, where I just throw up my hands.

But I still like watching it.

As someone who hasn't seen a live game in ages I feel that my lack of understanding of player substitutions and who can play when and where is overwhelming.  TV coverage can't possibly teach me anything about these two.  

I still enjoy watching, too.

TL;DR: Read the rulebook!

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them.

In today's game, there are 7 different positions: goal keeper (GK), close defense (CD), defensive midfield ("rope unit" or DM), offensive midfield, attack, FOGO & face-off wings:

• GK: uses a short stick with a big basket, usually stands in the "crease" in front of the goal
• CD: 3 players with long sticks who primarily defend their goal by marking the other team's attack
• DM: 2 players with short sticks (SSDM) plus 1 player with a long stick (LSM). They're often called a "rope unit" because they act in unison, as if tied by a rope. The LSM usually plays between the 2 SSDM's.
• Offensive midfield: 3 players with short sticks who participate in the offense, trying to score.
• Attack: 3 players with short sticks who usually play closest to the opponent's goal and who typically do most of their team's scoring.
• FOGO: A specialist who takes faceoffs ("faceoff, get off" ). Two wing players typically participate in the faceoff too.

Only 10 players per team are allowed on the field at one time. A section in the middle of the field is for faceoffs, and each team can have 3 players in that area. The FOGO's are in the center of the field, and the face-off wings are on the sides. During a faceoff, the two FOGOs face each other with the ball between the baskets of their sticks. When the referee blows the whistle, wings are free to rush towards the center, while the two FOGOs try to control the ball by clamping it and either gaining possession of it by scooping it up or raking it towards one of their wings.

I'm not 100% sure of this, because rules have changed since I played and I haven't finished reading the current rulebook. But I believe one or both of a team's faceoff wings can use a long stick. Other things being equal, long sticks can help when trying to pick up a ground ball, but they are harder to keep from an opponent trying to knock the ball out of your stick.

Once a team has gained possession, the referee declares this to be the case, and the other players may enter the faceoff area.

But the middle line restricts this. Each team must have at least 4 players in their defensive half (GK + 3*CD) and 3 players in their offensive half (3 x Attack). Call this "the 4/3 rule." Typically, only midfielders play on both sides of the middle line. In the old days, midfielders were almost always 2-ways (both uphill! ::dribble:; in other words, they played both defense and offense. Nowadays, they typically specialize in offense or defense. Hence, once the ball changes possession between teams, and it's on a team's offensive side, you'll usually see teams substituting. E.g., if a GK makes a save, his defensive midfielders will help clear the ball by bringing it into the offensive zone. Then they'll get off, while the team substitutes offensive midfielders for the defensive ones. Then the opponent will typically substitute as well, bringing on defensive middies to substitute for the offensive middies who lost possession thanks to the GK's heroics.

Because of the 10-player limit, teams can't substitute before the original player gets off the field. So, for example, if a LSM/Defender like Staub catches the ball on a clear and runs into the offensive zone with it, the coach might decide to let him stay in the offensive zone because the offensive middie he was guarding before is now guarding him, and the coach has confidence in Staub's ability to outplay the offensive specialist who's now playing defense. Similarly, some middies are good both ways, and this presents a timing problem for teams over-relying on specialized middies.

The offside rule is related. Because of the number of players allowed on either half of the field, you'll sometimes see a long-stick defender crossing over the midfield stripe when this gives his team an offensive advantage. Because the extra player could violate the 4/3 rule, one of the defensive middies must stay in the defensive zone. Typically, you'll see them on the other side of the field holding their stick up, so their teammates and the referees see them, and their team won't be called offside.

You'll also see laughable situations where, for example, a defensive middie crossed into the offensive zone as part of a clear and would ordinarily substitute off for an offensive middie. Instead, the defensive middie, who has good offensive skills, may fake getting off the field -- running towards the substitution box and then turning around -- so that the opposing team's offensive middie, who is now playing defense, starts running towards the substitution box but has to turn around, lest his team be a man down during the substitution. A few years ago, in the ILT at Columbia and against Yale, this was a hilarious sideshow during the game.

Because midfielders typically are the only ones who play on both halves of the field, they run more than any other position. For this reason, coaches substitute them more often. Cornell typically runs two midfield lines, and the club lacrosse team I played on ran 3 or 4. In important games, the 1st & 2nd got most of the playing time, but because club lacrosse is more recreational, the rest of us would get a few minutes in most games. (And as I improved, I became the 1st player off the bench to join the 2nd midfield line. ::banana:.

Of course, defenders and attackmen also get tired. So, you'll also see them being substituted, but much less frequently. Expect Cornell's 3 attack masters to play full games next weekend, depending on the game situation, matchups, etc. Similarly, expect and hope for Cornell's ball-movement wizardry to wear down the other teams' defenses, leaving their coaches with difficult decisions: Do I substitute for this guy to give him a rest, or do I keep him on the field because he's the best player I have to guard the man he's been guarding?

I hope this helps.

Amazing post. Really helpful

[CU77]

Yes, great post ...

Just to add a bit: the long stick is also called a "pole", also used as a term for a player wielding one. When a pole goes over the center line on a clear and has (or is passed) the ball, he may take a shot at the goal. It's much harder to control the aim with a long stick vs a short stick, so this is rare, but can result in a "pole goal". Cornell and Cuse are two teams that are not afraid to let their poles do this when circumstances arise.

A dramatic pole goal came near the end of last year's Cornell-Princeton game. Go to the 28:50 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHlAS5rG5s

[BearLover]

we have a team in the final 8 and hockey gets tons of discussion while Lax gets none.

That's because Bearlover isn't getting everyone upset on the lacrosse part of this forum.

Shhh.  Don't wake him.

I praised the lacrosse team five posts prior to yours. But I'm happy to be in people's heads even when I'm not posting.

[David Harding]

Thanks, Swampy, for the summary.  Do I understand correctly that violating the 4/3 rule is what triggers an offside call?  I find it curious that it's called offside, since the rule seems to enforce what would be called offside in other sports (hockey, football, soccer), namely players getting too far ahead of the ball.

[CU77]

Do I understand correctly that violating the 4/3 rule is what triggers an offside call?

Yes. The offending player is off of the side of the field that he should be on.

[stereax]

Too many experts over there. I'll stick with the duffers right here.

I thank you! *takes bow*

I like and value our lax community here.

As someone who doesn't understand lax almost at all... nice here.

Like, I think I get it, and then something happens during a game, mostly with substitutions and such, where I just throw up my hands.

But I still like watching it.

As someone who hasn't seen a live game in ages I feel that my lack of understanding of player substitutions and who can play when and where is overwhelming.  TV coverage can't possibly teach me anything about these two.  

I still enjoy watching, too.

TL;DR: Read the rulebook!

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them.

In today's game, there are 7 different positions: goal keeper (GK), close defense (CD), defensive midfield ("rope unit" or DM), offensive midfield, attack, FOGO & face-off wings:

• GK: uses a short stick with a big basket, usually stands in the "crease" in front of the goal
• CD: 3 players with long sticks who primarily defend their goal by marking the other team's attack
• DM: 2 players with short sticks (SSDM) plus 1 player with a long stick (LSM). They're often called a "rope unit" because they act in unison, as if tied by a rope. The LSM usually plays between the 2 SSDM's.
• Offensive midfield: 3 players with short sticks who participate in the offense, trying to score.
• Attack: 3 players with short sticks who usually play closest to the opponent's goal and who typically do most of their team's scoring.
• FOGO: A specialist who takes faceoffs ("FaceOff, Get Off" ). Two wing players typically participate in the faceoff too.
  

Only 10 players per team are allowed on the field at one time. A section in the middle of the field is for faceoffs, and each team can have 3 players in that area. The FOGO's are in the center of the field, and the face-off wings are on the sides. During a faceoff, the two FOGOs face each other with the ball between the baskets of their sticks. When the referee blows the whistle, wings are free to rush towards the center, while the two FOGOs try to control the ball by clamping it and either gaining possession of it by scooping it up or raking it towards one of their wings. Typically, the three teammates are treated as a unit, they all get off the field after their work is done, and three new players are substituted in.

I'm not 100% sure of this, because rules have changed since I played and I haven't finished reading the current rulebook. But I believe one or both of a team's faceoff wings can use a long stick. Other things being equal, long sticks can help when trying to pick up a ground ball, but they are harder to keep from an opponent trying to knock the ball out of your stick.

Once a team has gained possession, the referee declares this to be the case, and the other players may enter the faceoff area.

But the middle line restricts this. Each team must have at least 4 players in their defensive half (GK + 3*CD) and 3 players in their offensive half (3 x Attack). Call this "the 4/3 rule." Typically, only midfielders play on both sides of the middle line. In the old days, midfielders were almost always 2-ways (both uphill! ::dribble:; in other words, they played both defense and offense. Nowadays, they typically specialize in offense or defense. Hence, once the ball changes possession between teams, and it's on a team's offensive side, you'll usually see teams substituting. E.g., if a GK makes a save, his defensive midfielders will help clear the ball by bringing it into the offensive zone. Then they'll get off, while the team substitutes offensive midfielders for the defensive ones. Then the opponent will typically substitute as well, bringing on defensive middies to substitute for the offensive middies who lost possession thanks to the GK's heroics.

Because of the 10-player limit, teams can't substitute before the original player gets off the field. So, for example, if a LSM/Defender like Staub catches the ball on a clear and runs into the offensive zone with it, the coach might decide to let him stay in the offensive zone because the offensive middie he was guarding before is now guarding him, and the coach has confidence in Staub's ability to outplay the offensive specialist who's now playing defense. Similarly, some middies are good both ways, and this presents a timing problem for teams over-relying on specialized middies.

The offside rule is related. Because of the number of players allowed on either half of the field, you'll sometimes see a long-stick defender crossing over the midfield stripe when this gives his team an offensive advantage. Because the extra player could violate the 4/3 rule, one of the defensive middies must stay in the defensive zone. Typically, you'll see them on the other side of the field holding their stick up, so their teammates and the referees see them, and their team won't be called offside.

You'll also see laughable situations where, for example, a defensive middie crossed into the offensive zone as part of a clear and would ordinarily substitute off for an offensive middie. Instead, the defensive middie, who has good offensive skills, may fake getting off the field -- running towards the substitution box and then turning around -- so that the opposing team's offensive middie, who is now playing defense, starts running towards the substitution box but has to turn around, lest his team be a man down during the substitution. A few years ago, in the ILT at Columbia and against Yale, this was a hilarious sideshow during the game.

Because midfielders typically are the only ones who play on both halves of the field, they run more than any other position. For this reason, coaches substitute them more often. Cornell typically runs two midfield lines, and the club lacrosse team I played on ran 3 or 4. In important games, the 1st & 2nd got most of the playing time, but because club lacrosse is more recreational, the rest of us would get a few minutes in most games. (And as I improved, I became the 1st player off the bench to join the 2nd midfield line. ::banana:. But even then, because I was still learning the game (who isn't?), my stick skills were far behind my defensive skills. So, I mainly specialized in fast defense (e.g., knocking guys over as they were receiving a pass, etc.).

Of course, defenders and attackmen also get tired. So, you'll also see them being substituted, but much less frequently. Expect Cornell's 3 attack masters to play full games next weekend, depending on the game situation, matchups, etc. Similarly, expect and hope for Cornell's ball-movement wizardry to wear down the other teams' defenses, leaving their coaches with difficult decisions: Do I substitute for this guy to give him a rest, or do I keep him on the field because he's the best player I have to guard the man he's been guarding?

I hope this helps.

God tier post. Absolutely going to be using this going forward. Tysm!

[djk26]

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them...


I hope this helps.

Just want to add to the chorus of those who think this is an amazingly helpful post; I have already referred to it often and will likely do so again in the future.

Question for anyone who knows--everyone remembers Blaze Riordan's goal (he was the goaltender) for Albany against Cornell.  But now that I think about it--how was that not offsides?  Did one of Albany's attack players have to get out of the offensive zone because the goaltender was acting as an attack?

And for those who don't want to remember, I don't blame you, but I have to admit that it was the most ridiculous thing to probably ever happen to a team I liked--it just wasn't Cornell's day that day.

[LGR14]

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them...


I hope this helps.

Just want to add to the chorus of those who think this is an amazingly helpful post; I have already referred to it often and will likely do so again in the future.

Question for anyone who knows--everyone remembers Blaze Riordan's goal (he was the goaltender) for Albany against Cornell.  But now that I think about it--how was that not offsides?  Did one of Albany's attack players have to get out of the offensive zone because the goaltender was acting as an attack?

And for those who don't want to remember, I don't blame you, but I have to admit that it was the most ridiculous thing to probably ever happen to a team I liked--it just wasn't Cornell's day that day.

You can have 6 guys in the attacking end (3 attack and usually 3 midfielders), so one of the midfielders would have hung back (and were probably in the midst of a change anyway - from the defensive midfielders to the offensive midfielders).

[scoop85]

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them...


I hope this helps.

Just want to add to the chorus of those who think this is an amazingly helpful post; I have already referred to it often and will likely do so again in the future.

Question for anyone who knows--everyone remembers Blaze Riordan's goal (he was the goaltender) for Albany against Cornell.  But now that I think about it--how was that not offsides?  Did one of Albany's attack players have to get out of the offensive zone because the goaltender was acting as an attack?

And for those who don't want to remember, I don't blame you, but I have to admit that it was the most ridiculous thing to probably ever happen to a team I liked--it just wasn't Cornell's day that day.

Almost certainly one of the offensive middies went back onto the defensive side, not an attackman. Goalies often will cross the midfield line on a clear (the Georgetown goalie did it several times on Sunday against Maryland), but it's somewhat rare for the goalie to take the ball to the cage like Riordan did .

[mike1960]

Here are the relevant rules of today, as I understand them...


I hope this helps.

Just want to add to the chorus of those who think this is an amazingly helpful post; I have already referred to it often and will likely do so again in the future.

Question for anyone who knows--everyone remembers Blaze Riordan's goal (he was the goaltender) for Albany against Cornell.  But now that I think about it--how was that not offsides?  Did one of Albany's attack players have to get out of the offensive zone because the goaltender was acting as an attack?

And for those who don't want to remember, I don't blame you, but I have to admit that it was the most ridiculous thing to probably ever happen to a team I liked--it just wasn't Cornell's day that day.

Almost certainly one of the offensive middies went back onto the defensive side, not an attackman. Goalies often will cross the midfield line on a clear (the Georgetown goalie did it several times on Sunday against Maryland), but it's somewhat rare for the goalie to take the ball to the cage like Riordan did .

So long as teams have no more than six players on the offensive end, they won't be guilty of offsides. So they can have long poles or even a goalie on the offensive end, but no more than six. A kind of a universal sign that a middie is staying on the defensive end to avoid offsides is that he will raise his stick above his head. It's a difficult call for refs on the field because they are usually watching a play and not counting players. The bench ref should do the counting. But honestly, I think it's most often called when the team bench goes crazy and starts calling for offsides. Then the ref turns around and counts and throws the flag.

[ugarte]

It feels like the offside rule in lax is more like the dynamic shift change in hockey (or lax) than offside in hockey. A microviolation of the blue line will immediately stop play or void a goal on a challenge. There's more of an honor system about it in lax. Yes?

[billhoward]

I praised the lacrosse team five posts prior to yours. But I'm happy to be in people's heads even when I'm not posting.

We're happy you've find a place to live where you're comfortable. But please don't about abusing rent control. At some point adults need to move out and on with their lives.

[billhoward]

The rule about how many long sticks or wide nets applies to the whole field, not how many must be in the defensive half, so one more go on attack with a bigger stick isn't an infraction and anyway it's harder to shoot with long sticks or wide nets.

IIRC, Albany circa 2100 (if not, then Stony Brook?) had a goalie so talented with stick-handling that on Albany man-ups, he played behind the opponent net as a feeder.