Bracketology for 2020 NCAAs

[French Rage]

If it wasn't for the fact that I'd be scared of losing, I would LOVE to see Cornell-Penn State in the NCAAs. The contrasting coaching philosophy is off the charts interesting.

I like the bracketeers who put Clarkson and Penn State in the 2-3 or 3-2 slots in Allentown, and Cornell in Albany. Gives Cornell the possibility of reprising the 1970 final.

As for not running into Penn State until we have to, I'm sure there's a coach or announcer who's prepped to say if you want to be the best you gotta beat the best.

But I'd rather take them on in Detroit than in Allentown.

If there *is* a Detroit. A friend put it out there a few days ago, and I'm starting to worry.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nhl/articles/coronavirus_could_force_cancellation_of_two_major_hockey_tournaments/s1_14825_31451024

So they'll '94 Expo us?

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

If it wasn't for the fact that I'd be scared of losing, I would LOVE to see Cornell-Penn State in the NCAAs. The contrasting coaching philosophy is off the charts interesting.

I like the bracketeers who put Clarkson and Penn State in the 2-3 or 3-2 slots in Allentown, and Cornell in Albany. Gives Cornell the possibility of reprising the 1970 final.

As for not running into Penn State until we have to, I'm sure there's a coach or announcer who's prepped to say if you want to be the best you gotta beat the best.

But I'd rather take them on in Detroit than in Allentown.

If there *is* a Detroit. A friend put it out there a few days ago, and I'm starting to worry.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nhl/articles/coronavirus_could_force_cancellation_of_two_major_hockey_tournaments/s1_14825_31451024

So they'll '94 Expo us?

I've already seen some talk of March Madness being played in empty arenas.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

they could have offered to share hosting with the ECAC. its not like making  the cut was a wild long shot. it probably would have required a few phone calls and maybe a trip or 2 all the way to Albany. Huge schools like Holy Cross figured out a way to do it.  
Probably too  overwhelmed by all the other things that they have going on.

You're assuming the ECAC would've been willing to shoulder the lion's share of the cost and workload just so one specific member team can get a location benefit for the regionals.

More generally, I suspect you all are grossly under-estimating the potential cost outlay and logistical complexity of organizing an event of this scale. This isn't a family reunion on the Jersey Shore (which, incidentally, is much harder to organize without some local connections), it's a multi-day one-off major sporting event featuring a set of participants from four schools of unknown size and location. Doing logistics management with a few phone calls and one or two site visits is a recipe for disaster.

If Cornell was actually in Albany or Syracuse that'd be one thing, but it isn't (although Syracuse is a more reasonable target if their AHL arena is sufficient for NCAA regional purposes). As much as I'd love to see the home ice advantage for the regional I don't see why Cornell would ever take it on, unless it turns out that it really is a few phone calls and some chance of losing $10k or something. I just can't imagine that's the case.

FWIW, the Syracuse War Memorial seats 6500 for hockey.  Loveland seats about 5300, Allentown 8500+.  So capacity-wise, it's suitable.  It hosted the Frozen Four in '67 and '71, but I don't know if it's suitable for a regional of today's standards.

I think a more pertinent question is whether we could fill it?  We sometimes have trouble filling Lynah these days.  Yes, we can sell a bunch of tickets at MSG, but think of the alumni network we have in NYC.  I know we brought a big crowd to the Carrier Dome for the Sweet 16, but could we do that for a "lesser" sport?  I'm not sure.

[Swampy]

Hasn't Brown co-hosted in Providence? Harvard, in Boston? RPI, in Albany?

And we're talking about the regionals here, not the nationals.

Providence College hosted last year. So consider:

Providence College

Endowment: $234.2 million

Students: 4,550 (undergraduates + graduates)

Faculty: At 12 students for every instructional faculty member, that's a faculty of 379 members.


Now consider Cornell University:

Endowment: $7.33 billion

Students: 24,027 (total)

Faculty: At 9 students for every instructional faculty member, that's 2,670 faculty members


And, shit, if we can handle splitting colleges between the Ithaca and New York Tech campuses, which are 233 miles (4h 35m by car according to Google Maps), don't tell me we can't handle the commute to Albany (166 mi.; 2h, 53m) or Syracuse (52.5 mi; 1h 2m).

[Trotsky]

they could have offered to share hosting with the ECAC. its not like making  the cut was a wild long shot. it probably would have required a few phone calls and maybe a trip or 2 all the way to Albany. Huge schools like Holy Cross figured out a way to do it.  
Probably too  overwhelmed by all the other things that they have going on.

You're assuming the ECAC would've been willing to shoulder the lion's share of the cost and workload just so one specific member team can get a location benefit for the regionals.

More generally, I suspect you all are grossly under-estimating the potential cost outlay and logistical complexity of organizing an event of this scale. This isn't a family reunion on the Jersey Shore (which, incidentally, is much harder to organize without some local connections), it's a multi-day one-off major sporting event featuring a set of participants from four schools of unknown size and location. Doing logistics management with a few phone calls and one or two site visits is a recipe for disaster.

If Cornell was actually in Albany or Syracuse that'd be one thing, but it isn't (although Syracuse is a more reasonable target if their AHL arena is sufficient for NCAA regional purposes). As much as I'd love to see the home ice advantage for the regional I don't see why Cornell would ever take it on, unless it turns out that it really is a few phone calls and some chance of losing $10k or something. I just can't imagine that's the case.

FWIW, the Syracuse War Memorial seats 6500 for hockey.  Loveland seats about 5300, Allentown 8500+.  So capacity-wise, it's suitable.  It hosted the Frozen Four in '67 and '71, but I don't know if it's suitable for a regional of today's standards.

I think a more pertinent question is whether we could fill it?  We sometimes have trouble filling Lynah these days.  Yes, we can sell a bunch of tickets at MSG, but think of the alumni network we have in NYC.  I know we brought a big crowd to the Carrier Dome for the Sweet 16, but could we do that for a "lesser" sport?  I'm not sure.

Back in the day, attendance at the SHIT was horrendous.  Fun fact: the Syracuse War Memorial is the most depressing place I've ever been to see a hockey game, and I've been to the Tacoma Dome.

[Beeeej]

Hasn't Brown co-hosted in Providence? Harvard, in Boston? RPI, in Albany?

And we're talking about the regionals here, not the nationals.

Providence College hosted last year. So consider:

Providence College

Endowment: $234.2 million

Students: 4,550 (undergraduates + graduates)

Faculty: At 12 students for every instructional faculty member, that's a faculty of 379 members.


Now consider Cornell University:

Endowment: $7.33 billion

Students: 24,027 (total)

Faculty: At 9 students for every instructional faculty member, that's 2,670 faculty members


And, shit, if we can handle splitting colleges between the Ithaca and New York Tech campuses, which are 233 miles (4h 35m by car according to Google Maps), don't tell me we can't handle the commute to Albany (166 mi.; 2h, 53m) or Syracuse (52.5 mi; 1h 2m).

Is it now time for the annual conversation about how endowments work?

Hosting a hockey regional is just like anything else you want Cornell to do that they don't already do. Someone external needs to come up with the money, the will, and the way of getting it done, and they might consider it.

[Swampy]

they could have offered to share hosting with the ECAC. its not like making  the cut was a wild long shot. it probably would have required a few phone calls and maybe a trip or 2 all the way to Albany. Huge schools like Holy Cross figured out a way to do it.  
Probably too  overwhelmed by all the other things that they have going on.

You're assuming the ECAC would've been willing to shoulder the lion's share of the cost and workload just so one specific member team can get a location benefit for the regionals.

More generally, I suspect you all are grossly under-estimating the potential cost outlay and logistical complexity of organizing an event of this scale. This isn't a family reunion on the Jersey Shore (which, incidentally, is much harder to organize without some local connections), it's a multi-day one-off major sporting event featuring a set of participants from four schools of unknown size and location. Doing logistics management with a few phone calls and one or two site visits is a recipe for disaster.

If Cornell was actually in Albany or Syracuse that'd be one thing, but it isn't (although Syracuse is a more reasonable target if their AHL arena is sufficient for NCAA regional purposes). As much as I'd love to see the home ice advantage for the regional I don't see why Cornell would ever take it on, unless it turns out that it really is a few phone calls and some chance of losing $10k or something. I just can't imagine that's the case.

FWIW, the Syracuse War Memorial seats 6500 for hockey.  Loveland seats about 5300, Allentown 8500+.  So capacity-wise, it's suitable.  It hosted the Frozen Four in '67 and '71, but I don't know if it's suitable for a regional of today's standards.

I think a more pertinent question is whether we could fill it?  We sometimes have trouble filling Lynah these days.  Yes, we can sell a bunch of tickets at MSG, but think of the alumni network we have in NYC.  I know we brought a big crowd to the Carrier Dome for the Sweet 16, but could we do that for a "lesser" sport?  I'm not sure.

The question about filling the War Memorial is a good one. But to answer it, we should compare it to Loveland, Allentown, and Albany. In any case, as I argued above, we should be able to host Albany, Buffalo, or Binghamton almost as well as Syracuse.

Maybe a bigger issue is whether the neoliberal city fathers (and mothers -- "city parents"?) would welcome, boost, and contribute to Cornell hosting an event in their cities the same way as those in Providence welcome PC, Allentown welcome PSU, Loveland welcomes DU, etc.

[Trotsky]

You know what solves all this?

Campus sites for the first two rounds.

Just sayin'.

IINM there's nothing scheduled beyond 2022.  Senior Ben Berard could score an NCAA QF hat trick at Lynah.

Cornell's NC$$ game locations (had matchups stayed the same):

Code Select Expand


[b][u]Yr Actual       Co Op Campus Site    [/u] [/b]
96 Albany       E6 E3 at Lake Superior
[i][color=#0033CC]97 Grand Rapids W6 W3 at Miami[/color][/i]
97 Grand Rapids W6 W2 at North Dakota
02 Worcester    E4 E5 Quinnipiac
02 Worcester    E4 E1 at UNH
03 Providence   E1 E4 Mankato
03 Providence   E1 E2 BC
05 Minneapolis  W2 W3 Ohio State
05 Minneapolis  W2 W1 at Minnesota
06 Green Bay    W2 W3 CC
06 Green Bay    W2 W1 at Wisconsin
09 Grand Rapids M3 M2 Northeastern
[b]09 Grand Rapids M3 M4 Bemidji[/b]
[b]10 Albany       E2 E3 UNH[/b]
[i][color=#0033CC]12 Green Bay    M4 M1 at Michigan[/color][/i]
12 Green Bay    M4 M2 at Ferris State
17 Manchester   N3 N2 at Lowell
[b]18 Worcester    N1 N4 BU[/b]
[i][color=#0033CC]19 Providence   E3 E2 at Northeastern[/color][/i]
[b]19 Providence   E3 E4 Providence[/b]


Games we won which we would have had to play on the road.
Games we lost which we would have gotten to play at home.

[upprdeck]

Yeah there is a cost/time outlay.  But its also spread out over multiple months, Its not 40 hrs a week for 10 months thing like an olympics. In a world where meetings of a much larger importance are routinely handled over phone/zoom/etc dont say it cant be done.. its a logistics thing and it requires effort more than cost. It also requires a skill set that we probably lack. I do know they consider it and effort worth spending.. But if this was the wrestling team getting trying to win a championship it would happen.

They dont even want to host the Lax Ivy or NCAA regional playoffs at home so I can see why they dont do it..

Its not like we expect it to happen every yr. But bigger picture they should forecast it every once awhile

[Swampy]

Yeah there is a cost/time outlay.  But its also spread out over multiple months, Its not 40 hrs a week for 10 months thing like an olympics. In a world where meetings of a much larger importance are routinely handled over phone/zoom/etc dont say it cant be done.. its a logistics thing and it requires effort more than cost. It also requires a skill set that we probably lack. I do know they consider it and effort worth spending.. But if this was the wrestling team getting trying to win a championship it would happen.

They dont even want to host the Lax Ivy or NCAA regional playoffs at home so I can see why they dont do it..

Its not like we expect it to happen every yr. But bigger picture they should forecast it every once awhile

I hate to tempt the woofing gods, but at least our men's hockey team looks very good this year and next. And on paper, at least, for quite a few years to come.

[Jim Hyla]

So, after posting the polls, etc. I start reading the 29 posts on Bracketology that have come up since I checked in the morning.

I was hopeful for something exciting, like maybe an early announcement about the next 10 years of the tourney, or SU decided to start a men's team and as part of the Dome renovation they were going to add ice and start trying to get the regionals/Frozen Four.

But what do I plow through, endless comments about why can't CU host a regional, it must be that they don't care, or they're too cheap, or whatever.

No one bothers to try and find out what is needed to be a host, which seems to me to be the first step upon discussing whether CU could/should go for it.

If you really want to help, get the requirements in money (including what is risked if no crowd shows up), time and other effort. Post the info and see whether you can stir up some interest.

Or you can just post your complaints and theories as to why it must be that CU won't do what must be cheap and simple.

After all, doesn't the NCAA have dozens and dozens of places asking to host every year? They must know something that CU doesn't, don't they?

[ugarte]

After all, doesn't the NCAA have dozens and dozens of places asking to host every year? They must know something that CU doesn't, don't they?

all I know is that other schools do it and every time they do we have to play them at their place

[upprdeck]

The host must also provide all public relations coordination, first aid and medical services, food and beverage concessions, support personnel, computers, fax machines, printers, athletic training staff, and "other items as later requested by the NCAA." To accomplish this, each site requires about 100 volunteers.

you can read the rest. somethings like spend $5000 to market the games and make sure they make $150,000 is interesting.
Much of this though is done by the site, you dont just get an area/arena to go into this without some help from them as well.

so you want to be a host

really though, much of the spec is facility related..  you have to be willing to market the game a little and make sure hotel and some other stuff happens.. If you join in with Albany  I have to think they are doing most of that heavy lifting and have done it dozens of times.

[Jim Hyla]

After all, doesn't the NCAA have dozens and dozens of places asking to host every year? They must know something that CU doesn't, don't they?

all I know is that other schools do it and every time they do we have to play them at their place

I think we all know the problem. The difficulty is the solution. So far on this thread I read a lot about the problem, whining about CU not hosting, and no discussion about the solution.

The line you quoted was meant to emphasize that the NCAA doesn't have an abundance of schools/other entities that apply for hosting a regional.

Maybe, just maybe, many of them have looked at the process and determined that the risk is not worth the reward. If that's true, then the problem is not that schools don't apply, but that the NCAA is asking too much.

I don't know what is the problem. But I do know that to come up with an answer, you first need to understand the problem. Otherwise all we do is whine.

[Jim Hyla]

Adam's take on the brackets and the current issues.