Cornell-Princeton lacrosse 4/27/19

[billhoward]

A lot riding on the Princeton game, 12 noon Saturday at Schoellkopf. Win and Cornell is in the Ivy lacrosse tournament. Which tournament Cornell needs to win to guarantee a slot in the NCAA tournament although making it to the Ivy title game may be enough.

Princeton's season has been bad start, good finish: 2-5 start (including OT loss to Virginia, by 2 to Hopkins, by 1 to Rutgers), then 5-1 (lone loss vs. Brown), with MOVs +1 (Denver), -4 (Brown), +10 (Stony Brook), +9 (Siena), +9 (Dartmouth), +4 (Harvard). Junior A Michael Sowers #22 has 82 points this year and holds positions 1, 2 and 3 for single-season scoring. He was 3-7--10 vs. Harvard.

The ELF Cornell-Brown lax and Cornell 2019 threads lay out the possibilities. If Cornell loses to Princeton (could happen) and Brown beats Dartmouth, there is a wacky series of tiebreakers. Each of us will be 1-1 against the other two looking for the final two slots in the Ivy tournament. Each will be 0-2 against 1-seed Penn and 2-seed Yale, the others in the tournament. Each will be 2-0 against Harvard and Dartmouth, who will not make the tournament. It comes down to a goals differential tiebreaker against the other two teams contending.

Currently:
Cornell is +3 so far (12-9 over Brown)
Princeton is -4 so far (14-10 loss to Brown)
Brown stands at +1 (win 14-10 vs. Princeton, lose 12-9 vs. Cornell)
Goal differential would decide who gets #3 seed and plays Yale.
Then: Head to head decides who gets #4 seed and plays Penn
There are scenarios where if Princeton is beating Cornell by 5 (I believe it's 5) then Cornell benefits by losing by more because that pushes Princeton's goal differential above Brown's. If we lose by 1-2-3-or-4, we finish the H2H -1 at worst same as Brown and make the final slot (and play Penn).

Imagine the scenario where Princeton goes up by 5 goals late, we need to lose by 6, Princeton if it wins the following faceoff just stalls, and we could avoid that by winning the faceoff and oops scoring an against goal. Except we can't win a faceoff. (If we hadn't allowed the last Brown goal with 0.8 to play, we could lose by as many as 5 and still be in.) All of this a non-factor if we beat Princeton, which gives us third seed and a rematch with Yale, arguably a better team than Penn especially we match up so poorly against Yale on faceoffs. (Edit add:  This is a joke on my part. I don't see how a team can honestly / legitimately / in a sportsmanlike manner deliberately score against-goals to lose by more in order to make a playoff.)

Read the threads on the Brown game and 2019 lax. Or just this one comment:

I will never get this shit. Never.

[billhoward]

More on how the tiebreaker would work, from Cornell and Princeton PR:

If Princeton beats Cornell and Dartmouth beats Brown, then Princeton is in. If Brown beats Dartmouth and Princeton beats Cornell, then Princeton, Cornell and Brown would all be 3-3 in the league, including 0-2 against Penn and Yale, 2-0 against Harvard and Dartmouth and 1-1 against each other. The next tiebreaker then would be goal-differential head-to-head among the three.

So far, Princeton has a four-goal loss to Brown, while Cornell defeated Brown 12-9 Saturday. Those two results have Cornell at plus-three, Brown at plus-one and Princeton at minus-four. After goal-differential breaks the tie for third, then head-to-head decides who would get fourth.

As a result of all of that, Princeton needs to defeat Cornell by at least three goals to push Brown ahead of Cornell in goal-differential, giving the Bears the third spot and then the Tigers the fourth by virtue of what would have to be a head-to-head win over Cornell. The strange part is that had Princeton lost to Brown by more, then it would have to defeat Cornell by less. https://goprincetontigers.com/news/2019/4/20/mens-lacrosse-sowers-ties-25-year-old-school-record-for-career-points-as-tigers-defeat-harvard-stay-alive-in-ivy-tournament-chase.aspx

The Big Red returns to Ithaca for its regular season finale as it celebrates Senior Day vs. Princeton at noon on Saturday, April 27.  With the Tigers win over Harvard earlier today, the game will be pivotal in determining the final two spots of the Ivy League Tournament. Cornell can get in with a win over the Tigers. https://cornellbigred.com/news/2019/4/20/mens-lacrosse-fast-start-strong-finish-lifts-no-10-mens-lax-over-brown.aspx

[Al DeFlorio]

Brown is +1, not -1.  Brown's goal with .8 seconds left yesterday could be the decider.  Nuts.

[CU77]

Princeton is wishing they had lost to Brown by 6 or more, instead of by 4. Then they would make the ILT with a win over Cornell by any margin. As it is, they must win by 3 or more.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

A lot riding on the Princeton game, 12 noon Saturday at Schoellkopf. Win and Cornell is in the Ivy lacrosse tournament. Which tournament Cornell needs to win to guarantee a slot in the NCAA tournament although making it to the Ivy title game may be enough.

Princeton's season has been bad start, good finish: 2-5 start (including OT loss to Virginia, by 2 to Hopkins, by 1 to Rutgers), then 5-1 (lone loss vs. Brown), with MOVs +1 (Denver), -4 (Brown), +10 (Stony Brook), +9 (Siena), +9 (Dartmouth), +4 (Harvard). Junior A Michael Sowers #22 has 82 points this year and holds positions 1, 2 and 3 for single-season scoring. He was 3-7--10 vs. Harvard.

The ELF Cornell-Brown lax and Cornell 2019 threads lay out the possibilities. If Cornell loses to Princeton (could happen) and Brown beats Dartmouth, there is a wacky series of tiebreakers. Each of us will be 1-1 against the other two looking for the final two slots in the Ivy tournament. Each will be 0-2 against 1-seed Penn and 2-seed Yale, the others in the tournament. Each will be 2-0 against Harvard and Dartmouth, who will not make the tournament. It comes down to a goals differential tiebreaker against the other two teams contending.

Currently:
Cornell is +3 so far (12-9 over Brown)
Princeton is -4 so far (14-10 loss to Brown)
Brown stands at +1 (win 14-10 vs. Princeton, lose 12-9 vs. Cornell)
Goal differential would decide who gets #3 seed and plays Yale.
Then: Head to head decides who gets #4 seed and plays Penn
There are scenarios where if Princeton is beating Cornell by 5 (I believe it's 5) then Cornell benefits by losing by more because that pushes Princeton's goal differential above Brown's. If we lose by 1-2-3-or-4, we finish the H2H -1 at worst same as Brown and make the final slot (and play Penn).

Imagine the scenario where Princeton goes up by 5 goals late, we need to lose by 6, Princeton if it wins the following faceoff just stalls, and we could avoid that by winning the faceoff and oops scoring an against goal. Except we can't win a faceoff. (If we hadn't allowed the last Brown goal with 0.8 to play, we could lose by as many as 5 and still be in.) All of this a non-factor if we beat Princeton, which gives us third seed and a rematch with Yale, arguably a better team than Penn especially we match up so poorly against Yale on faceoffs. (Edit add:  This is a joke on my part. I don't see how a team can honestly / legitimately / in a sportsmanlike manner deliberately score against-goals to lose by more in order to make a playoff.)

Read the threads on the Brown game and 2019 lax. Or just this one comment:

I will never get this shit. Never.

Yeah, that comment still stands.

[ugarte]

beat princeton not the abacus

just saw that td ierlan and yianni know each other from high school wrestling and now i'm even more upset that he went to yale instead

[CU2007]

So I understand there are scenarios where Cornell would benefit from scoring an own goal or two, but my question is: would this be a detriment to Princeton? I assume not and it would only push out Brown, but I'm trying to envision a scenario where Princeton would be defending our net from us scoring an own goal - total mayhem.

Obviously Milman wouldn't do this because it's the type of thing that makes national news and gets coaches fired for "teaching the kids a bad lesson" but it's fun to think about.

Give this a read if you aren't familiar - not a totally unheard of situation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados_4–2_Grenada_(1994_Caribbean_Cup_qualification)

Edit: Something funky in the link won't let me paste it, but google "Barbados Grenada Caribbean cup" and read the Wikipedia

[Beeeej]

So I understand there are scenarios where Cornell would benefit from scoring an own goal or two, but my question is: would this be a detriment to Princeton? I assume not and it would only push out Brown, but I'm trying to envision a scenario where Princeton would be defending our net from us scoring an own goal - total mayhem.

Obviously Milman wouldn't do this because it's the type of thing that makes national news and gets coaches fired for "teaching the kids a bad lesson" but it's fun to think about.

What teaches kids a bad lesson is the governing body of a sport laying down rules for tournament qualification that even make such a scenario possible, thus putting the kids and their coach in a difficult position. Unlike the famous fifth down game, there's nothing sportsmanlike about allowing yourself to be eliminated from your post-season tournament because you played too well.

[CU2007]

So I understand there are scenarios where Cornell would benefit from scoring an own goal or two, but my question is: would this be a detriment to Princeton? I assume not and it would only push out Brown, but I'm trying to envision a scenario where Princeton would be defending our net from us scoring an own goal - total mayhem.

Obviously Milman wouldn't do this because it's the type of thing that makes national news and gets coaches fired for "teaching the kids a bad lesson" but it's fun to think about.

What teaches kids a bad lesson is the governing body of a sport laying down rules for tournament qualification that even make such a scenario possible, thus putting the kids and their coach in a difficult position. Unlike the famous fifth down game, there's nothing sportsmanlike about allowing yourself to be eliminated from your post-season tournament because you played too well.

Obviously I'm not arguing that. But I still can't see him giving the order to start firing it into our own net given the potential fallout of doing so seeing as its pretty close to the dreaded "match fixing"  Maybe I'm wrong. My guess is the Ivy League and the NCAA wouldn't take too kindly to it.

[upprdeck]

is scoring own goals any less sporting than running up a score?

[CU2007]

is scoring own goals any less sporting than running up a score?

I think so. The assumed objective by all vested parties (let's not forget about bettors here - there is a Vegas spread on this game) is to score on the opposition. Running up the score can enter a moral gray area at a somewhat arbitrary point (i.e. Answer will vary based on who you ask) but scoring on yourself goes against the spirit of competition pretty unanimously. (I hope)

[Beeeej]

is scoring own goals any less sporting than running up a score?

I think so. The assumed objective by all vested parties (let's not forget about bettors here - there is a Vegas spread on this game) is to score on the opposition. Running up the score can enter a moral gray area at a somewhat arbitrary point (i.e. Answer will vary based on who you ask) but scoring on yourself goes against the spirit of competition pretty unanimously. (I hope)

No, not unanimously in the least. College athletes owe absolutely nothing to the bettors except for their legal obligation not to manipulate the score for the financial gain of themselves or others. (EDIT to add: And by the way, if a bettor wagers money on this game without knowing all the factors that could contribute to the final score, they're not doing their due diligence.) The athletes' duty is to do everything they can to win individual games (and in the described scenario, they've already done that), then set themselves up for tournament success in the post-season, which would be more difficult the better they play in this hypothetical game. In this case I think it's the way the tournament qualification is set up that quite obviously goes against the spirit of competition. Once it's set up that way, it isn't up to the players and coaches to judge the morality of what they're doing to qualify for the tournament as long as they're not breaking the rules of the game.

Otherwise, you're basically saying that you'd rather have them win the game by too many goals and miss the tournament so that they can feel better about not violating the spirit of a rule that doesn't even exist, than have them qualify for the tournament by doing what's required.

[ugarte]

the fun scenario is princeton wanting brown to make it over us and fighting at the x for the right to score matching own-goals to keep the win at the golden margin

[mike1960]

Just win.

[Trotsky]

the fun scenario is princeton wanting brown to make it over us and fighting at the x for the right to score matching own-goals to keep the win at the golden margin

That's when the league steps in and DQs both teams for the post-season.

It would be funny enough to be worth it.  A "Magic Christian" of lacrosse.