Florida College Classic

[Trotsky]

1. I don't think it's complacency.

2. We played very well in the second Estero game.  Puck luck did us in.  Last year OTOH we sucked harder for longer than a truck stop well you know.

[Hooking]

There is a reason why teams don't "show up" for some games or at some times of the year. I suspect Cornell hockey fans are becoming more complacent than the players, and every effect has its cause.

[ACM]

Trotsky,

Didn't Cornell host a tourney many years ago?

A problem that RPI had in recent years was getting quality opponents to attend who wouldn't treat this as a two-game series at RPI demanding two games in their barn in return. From RPI's point of view having two games in Troy and having to play a total of six away games was a no-go, so we ended up having poorer and poorer tourneys.

Cornell did host briefly.  Arthur would remember in detail by the impression is it Did Not Go Well.

I'm sure we would have the same home/away issue, and Mike would insist as well.  The more I think about the Clarkson/Cornell co-host at Placid the more I love it.  

1958-59 Cornell Invitational
1/1/59 lost 11-0 to Colby
1/2/59 lost 10-0 to New Hampshire

1960-61 Cornell Invitational
12/19/60 lost 4-3 to Norwich
12/20/60 lost 2-1 to Bowdoin
12/21/60 lost 5-2 to Williams

1977-78 Cornell Holiday Festival
12/29/77 beat Toronto 10-5
12/30/77 beat Bowling Green 5-3

1978-79 Cornell Holiday Festival
12/28/78 beat Maine 3-1
12/29/78 beat Western Michigan 8-3

[rstott]

The team hates Florida.  I was sitting next to the parent of a player at one of the games.  The parent said that when the son was a freshman he expressed enthusiasm about going to Florida in December and the seniors were "well, not exactly."  They all know that have never play well in Estero.  They have to leave on the 26th, practice on the 27th and play the next day.  They just want to get back to Ithaca and get on with season.

[upprdeck]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

[Trotsky]

The team hates Florida.  I was sitting next to the parent of a player at one of the games.  The parent said that when the son was a freshman he expressed enthusiasm about going to Florida in December and the seniors were "well, not exactly."  They all know that have never play well in Estero.  They have to leave on the 26th, practice on the 27th and play the next day.  They just want to get back to Ithaca and get on with season.

I don't doubt you, but this isn't what I've heard from player families before.  That was some years ago, and the bloom may be off the orange.

[ugarte]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

this analysis would all be well and good if Colorado College wasn't 4-12-1 coming into the Estero final. You lose some games with puck luck. It happens. And a few bounces and you're right: we're not thinking about the game at all. But we lost to a bad team because we couldn't generate enough offense to keep a couple of bad bounces from mattering.

[Trotsky]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

this analysis would all be well and good if Colorado College wasn't 4-12-1 coming into the Estero final. You lose some games with puck luck. It happens. And a few bounces and you're right: we're not thinking about the game at all. But we lost to a bad team because we couldn't generate enough offense to keep a couple of bad bounces from mattering.

All that means is they're not a great team. Good teams are never entirely outside the gravitational pull of a bad night.  The thing that makes great teams great is when they completely suck and still somehow rip a win out of it. That's when you know you really have something and people start talking about "team of destiny" and all that rot.

The loss blows and it hurts them in PWR but I had no doubt who the better team was all night.  That was not the case when they lost 8-zip to OSU.

[Johnny 5]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

this analysis would all be well and good if Colorado College wasn't 4-12-1 coming into the Estero final. You lose some games with puck luck. It happens. And a few bounces and you're right: we're not thinking about the game at all. But we lost to a bad team because we couldn't generate enough offense to keep a couple of bad bounces from mattering.

All that means is they're not a great team. Good teams are never entirely outside the gravitational pull of a bad night.  The thing that makes great teams great is when they completely suck and still somehow rip a win out of it. That's when you know you really have something and people start talking about "team of destiny" and all that rot.

The loss blows and it hurts them in PWR but I had no doubt who the better team was all night.  That was not the case when they lost 8-zip to OSU.

So very true.

[CowbellGuy]

Let me just say it will be the last time.

You might be on to something there.

[BearLover]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

this analysis would all be well and good if Colorado College wasn't 4-12-1 coming into the Estero final. You lose some games with puck luck. It happens. And a few bounces and you're right: we're not thinking about the game at all. But we lost to a bad team because we couldn't generate enough offense to keep a couple of bad bounces from mattering.

All that means is they're not a great team. Good teams are never entirely outside the gravitational pull of a bad night.  The thing that makes great teams great is when they completely suck and still somehow rip a win out of it. That's when you know you really have something and people start talking about "team of destiny" and all that rot.

The loss blows and it hurts them in PWR but I had no doubt who the better team was all night.  That was not the case when they lost 8-zip to OSU.

Cornell is an average team that has had above-average luck.  Tough to make the case for anything else.  Weak SOS, lots of close wins, not even outshooting the bad teams.  One more SOG than one of the worst teams in the country?  Really?  The advanced stats suggest no better:
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/stats/

[Dafatone]

there is losing and not playing well.. there is also losing and just not winning.  they played well and controlled game 1,  game 2 they played fine, had far the better chances, gave up a short handed breakaway type goal and a sloppy one to cost them the game after doing a good job to kill off a PK. its hockey and you can be the better team and lose any night. they goal is to be the better team more often than you are the lucky team .

if we win the 2-1 game we are looking at perhaps the hottest team in the NCAA by record. to come out of florida with 2 well played games is a sign of optimism that hopefully carries on this weekend and is much more important getting back into ECAC play.

this analysis would all be well and good if Colorado College wasn't 4-12-1 coming into the Estero final. You lose some games with puck luck. It happens. And a few bounces and you're right: we're not thinking about the game at all. But we lost to a bad team because we couldn't generate enough offense to keep a couple of bad bounces from mattering.

All that means is they're not a great team. Good teams are never entirely outside the gravitational pull of a bad night.  The thing that makes great teams great is when they completely suck and still somehow rip a win out of it. That's when you know you really have something and people start talking about "team of destiny" and all that rot.

The loss blows and it hurts them in PWR but I had no doubt who the better team was all night.  That was not the case when they lost 8-zip to OSU.

Cornell is an average team that has had above-average luck.  Tough to make the case for anything else.  Weak SOS, lots of close wins, not even outshooting the bad teams.  One more SOG than one of the worst teams in the country?  Really?  The advanced stats suggest no better:
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/stats/

I'm skeptical of hockey advanced metrics to begin with (I feel like we're still waiting for a better set of measurements to be developed), but especially so in college.  At least in the NHL, you can be certain that almost every player, barring a few O'Byrne-esque sorts, can locate shots well, and therefore more chances and better flow of play is going to result in more goals.  On the college level, I'd think the distribution of shooting accuracy would be far more scattered, resulting in more variety.  More chances is certainly better than fewer chances, but whether or not your players can put shots in (or on) goal is important.  I can recall a bunch of frustrating losses a decade ago where we'd outshoot a weaker team 50-20 and still lose, because we made some not-that-great goalie look incredible.  It seems like our snipers snipe better with this team.

Admittedly, I take a similar approach to baseball analytics, where I'm all for advanced metrics but disagree with the general premise that BABIP always reverts to the mean.  Maybe I'm just getting crotchety.

We've got plenty of hockey left and stiffer competition.  I'm encouraged by the fact that we've at least looked like we belong on the ice with some of the better teams we've faced, and as has been mentioned in this thread, losing 2-1 is better than losing 8-0.  I fully expect us to be roughly around where we were last year, hopefully a bit better, and while I'd love an NCAA bid, I refuse to call missing out by one spot a complete failure.

[billhoward]

I wouldn't mind seeing Cornell try to host a tourney a la the RPI Invitational.  IIRC the arguments against it were the lack of lockerroom space and the generally shitty condition of the "back office" facilities, but those have been improved in the refurbishments.

Lynah is a fun, historic place to play, and we could concentrate on invitees who rarely/never get to go there (the AHA and the west).

The idea of hosting a tourney at LP, and thus making that a "home" site in March, is terrific, but I believe that place is booked solid with underage tourneys all through December.  Maybe we could co-host with Clarkson and pump a little life into that rivalry.  With Casey there the negotiations should be easy.

The LP youth tournaments Christmas-New Year week are a feeder into the CanAm Hockey summer program that keeps the Lake Placid Olympic Center rinks (there are three, one shared with figure skating) busy July and early August. The Xmas week youth tournaments keep the town going all week; a college tournament would get fans looking for 2 nights of lodging. The only downside to the youth tournaments is the wear and tear on hotel rooms in LP when there are four kids per room, even with hockey sticks left outside the hotel.

A tournament in Ithaca during the holiday week could be a recipe for 1,000-person attendance.

[Trotsky]

I wouldn't mind seeing Cornell try to host a tourney a la the RPI Invitational.  IIRC the arguments against it were the lack of lockerroom space and the generally shitty condition of the "back office" facilities, but those have been improved in the refurbishments.

Lynah is a fun, historic place to play, and we could concentrate on invitees who rarely/never get to go there (the AHA and the west).

The idea of hosting a tourney at LP, and thus making that a "home" site in March, is terrific, but I believe that place is booked solid with underage tourneys all through December.  Maybe we could co-host with Clarkson and pump a little life into that rivalry.  With Casey there the negotiations should be easy.

The LP youth tournaments Christmas-New Year week are a feeder into the CanAm Hockey summer program that keeps the Lake Placid Olympic Center rinks (there are three, one shared with figure skating) busy July and early August. The Xmas week youth tournaments keep the town going all week; a college tournament would get fans looking for 2 nights of lodging. The only downside to the youth tournaments is the wear and tear on hotel rooms in LP when there are four kids per room, even with hockey sticks left outside the hotel.

A tournament in Ithaca during the holiday week could be a recipe for 1,000-person attendance.

All good points.

It's not an easy problem, which is why we were toiling at the Syracuse War Memorial and other garden spots before we found Florida.

[Hooking]

On the positive side, the warm weather, the long commute to Estero, and the holiday season provide three convenient variables to explain team performance. See above.