Ivy League hockey recruiting

[Ben]

Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

I was trying to say that there may already have been some bias in aid packages based on merit, just not on the size of the package. Anyway, I don't have a problem with giving merit based aid.   Once you guarantee to provide financial need to all students I don't think it's a bad thing to give more aid to better candidates. I actually think it's a good thing. But YMMV.

I agree with the principle, but it doesn't seem that we could currently afford to provide merit-based aid in addition to meeting demonstrated need.

[Al DeFlorio]

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/12/cornell-matches-financial-aid-offered-peer-schools

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

[Swampy]

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/12/cornell-matches-financial-aid-offered-peer-schools

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

[David Harding]

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/12/cornell-matches-financial-aid-offered-peer-schools

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

From an e-mail forwarded to me recently by my CAAAN chair:

Dear CAAAN Chairs:
At this time of year, the university receives a number of questions about financial aid.  We don't expect our ambassadors to be experts on financial aid, but here is some basic information that should help you in your work with admitted students.
The Cornell University Office of Financial Aid and Student Employment has an official appeal process, which has been outlined below:
·         There is an appeal application form to be completed by the parent or student, in order to make the process easier and more efficient.  The form is available for download on the Financial Aid and Student Employment website (www.finaid.cornell.edu).
·         Families should describe in detail any circumstances that have a bearing on the appeal, such as changes in income or unusual expenses, providing necessary supporting documentation with specific dollar amounts where applicable.
·         A copy of the family's 2012 Federal Income Tax Return(s) should be on file in the Office of Financial Aid and Student Employment.  This information is typically required for appeal evaluation.
·         If a student has financial aid award letters from peer institutions, the student may forward copies of those letters to the office for award matching consideration. The award matching initiative is outlined on the Financial Aid and Student Employment website (www.finaid.cornell.edu).
Please stay tuned for more important updates.  Thank you for all you do for Cornell!
Cheers,
Kyle
 
 
Kyle Downey
Associate Director/Coordinator of Alumni Volunteer Programs
Undergraduate Admissions Office
Cornell University

(Emphasis added.)

[billhoward]

I wondered about the general griping about Harvard-Yale-Princeton's ability to offer better packages to athletes, and whether it's true. Thanks for reposting some of the most important conclusions, Adam.

The Ivies are among the wealthiest universities but some such as HYP are wealthier. Consider not just total endowment but how many students you need to spread it across. Harvard has twice the endowment as Princeton but Princeton has twice the money per student: $2.2 million. That's 10 times what Cornell has per student. If Princeton's endowment returns 4%, that throws off $90,000 per student.

Annual survey of the National Association of College and University Business Officers and the Commonfund Institute via http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57567214/20-biggest-college-endowments/ (adding calculations for the Ivies and Stanford).

Code Select Expand


[b]School Endowment $B Students $/student[/b]
Harvard        $30.4 27,392 $1,109,813
Yale        $19.3 11,593 $1,664,798
Texas (system) $18.2
Stanford $17.0 15,870 $1,071,204
Princeton $16.9 7,567        $2,233,382
MIT        $10.1
Michigan $7.6
Columbia $6.5 27,606 $235,456
Texas A&M sys $7.6
Northwestern $7.1
Penn        $6.7 21,239 $315,457
Chicago        $6.5
Notre Dame $6.3
Cal        $5.9
Duke        $5.5
Emory        $5.4
Washington U $5.2
Cornell        $4.9 20,939 $234,013
Virginia $4.7
Rice        $4.4

The Ivies used to collaborate to make sure no student's choice of an Ivy school was influenced by a better or worse aid package. The courts held that's a polite way of saying collusion, it's illegal, and cut that out. But as Adam notes, among student-athlete candidates, the schools do have the chance to match another Ivy's offer. And it appears the offer-matching extends beyond just athletes and to a few elite schools outside the Ives such as MIT. What the Ivies no longer do is proactively set aid levels in advance for all students who apply to multiple Ivies.  

In a lot of sports, at schools where there are athletic scholarships, it doesn't cover the whole team. For D1 hockey it's 18 and for lacrosse it's 12.6 (http://www.berecruited.com/resources/recruiting-assistance-from-qput-me-in-coachq/ncaa-scholarship-allotment). So a scholarship school in hockey or lax can offer 3-5 scholarships a year to enterting freshmen.

Scholarships can be split. The New York Times wrote about the myth of all those full ride scholarships and found a lot of minor sports athletes were struggling to get by, parents would beg for a one-eighth scholarship just so they could say their son or daughter got an athletic scholarship, and there can be sniping by players and parents who see a one-quarter scholarship player having a better year than a half-scholarhsip player.

The Ivies with better endowments (than non Ivies) can offer better aid packages and if every student gets a good aid package, then that helps the students who come to play sports.

At one point, a generation ago when Kodak was a hot tech company, the University of Rochester held a huge stake in Kodak and was considered the or one of the wealthiest colleges in America relative to how many students. Not so any more.

[Josh '99]

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/12/cornell-matches-financial-aid-offered-peer-schools

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

This.  Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

[Trotsky]

This.  Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

[Josh '99]

This.  Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

Yeah, the really scary thing is that I might have become a basketball fan.  :-O

[billhoward]

This.  Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

Still amazing that Penn's Class of 1923 builds a nice rink on campus circa 1970 and a 6, 8 years later, Penn disbands hockey. Then a year later Penn goes to the final four in hoops and hockey is irrevocably forgotten. I still wonder with the growth of youth hockey across the US, if Penn might someday get back in.

[George64]

Still amazing that PrincetonPenn's Class of 1923 builds a nice rink on campus circa 1970 and a 6, 8 years later, Penn disbands hockey. Then a year later Penn goes to the final four in hoops and hockey is irrevocably forgotten. I still wonder with the growth of youth hockey across the US, if Penn might someday get back in.

Penn dropped hockey after the 1977-78 season, prompting Geoff Roeszler '81 (father of Tyler '11) to transfer to Cornell.  With PSU soon to play D1 hockey, I've also wondered if Penn will give it another shot.

[BMac]

In an abrupt reversal after years of expanding financial aid, Cornell announced Tuesday that, beginning Fall 2013, it will no longer provide loan-free aid packages to all students whose parents make under $75,000 a year. Cornell had eliminated loans for students whose families made under $75,000 a year, replacing them with grants and work-study options. No more. Beginning Fall 2013, only freshmen whose families earn less than $60,000 a year will qualify for loan-free aid.

http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2012/07/08/cornell-kills-portion-financial-aid-guarantee

This is what bothers me. Why should an engineering student who can't get a loan-free aid package get passed over by an athlete who gets a full ride from Princeton?

[margolism]

Also keep in mind there are a number of students on the team that I am sure would not qualify for any financial aid.

As long as the athletes don't get special treatment in terms of financial aid packages vs. non-athletes, I am fine with it.

For the "elite" hockey players that are legit pro prospects, I would imagine that they would choose a school based on which one will help them the most in their hockey development, be it HYP, Cornell, or a non-Ivy.

For the player who recognizes that the collegiate level is probably as high as they will realistically go, fit with school / academic interests will be more significant I would imagine.

[Swampy]

In an abrupt reversal after years of expanding financial aid, Cornell announced Tuesday that, beginning Fall 2013, it will no longer provide loan-free aid packages to all students whose parents make under $75,000 a year. Cornell had eliminated loans for students whose families made under $75,000 a year, replacing them with grants and work-study options. No more. Beginning Fall 2013, only freshmen whose families earn less than $60,000 a year will qualify for loan-free aid.

http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2012/07/08/cornell-kills-portion-financial-aid-guarantee

This is what bothers me. Why should an engineering student who can't get a loan-free aid package get passed over by an athlete who gets a full ride from Princeton?

And of course, somewhere along the way an athlete gets special consideration from an Ivy financial aid officer. ("Adding someone from Moose Jaw will make the class more diverse.")

College athletics are corrupt, but when compared to the factory schools our corruption is so minor that the Ivies look squeaky clean.