Generic Off Season Thread

[Al DeFlorio]

Another way the brand would improve is by having its name associated with Lake Placid. That's my premise. And I do think it would be very useful in that regard.

1980 is ancient history.  This is a pipe dream.  Play the games where people can easily go to see them.

[marty]

I was surprised that it did well this year compared to BC with Union and Mass-Lowell. Yale was more predictable.

BC typically does not draw big crowds.

That's too bad.

My recollection is that they drew will in Albany in 1998. Same memory of BC in 2003 at Providence when we beat them in OT.

Ancient history?

[redice]

I will say this, LP is the only ECAC tournament location where I can recall a constant drone of statements that it's a "WONDERFUL PLACE TO HOLD THIS TOURNAMENT" from the media and the league officials.    That tells me that they don't really believe it and their trying to convince the world.

For example, when it was in Boston before the ECAC & HE split, nobody wasted any time bragging about Boston being a great place to have the finals.   They didn't have to make such claims.   Why?   Because it was!!   No promotion was necessary!!   And no, I am not proposing that we move back to Boston.   We all know why that can't/won't happen.   But, at the time that the tournament was held there, it was a terrific site.   LP?   Never!!

By that logic, why isn't anyone claiming AC is wonderful?

I don't know...You'll have to ask the ECACHL office.   Tactics change, you know.  

It's just an observation that I made while the tourney was in LP...  I didn't buy it (that it was great location for the tourney) then and I don't buy it now.   I just considered all that talk to be propaganda.

[Trotsky]

For example, when it was in Boston before the ECAC & HE split, nobody wasted any time bragging about Boston being a great place to have the finals.

That's actually not true.  People waxed rhapsodic about the wonders of Boston and the Garden until you'd swear Doris Kearns Goodwin was blowing them under the table.

[marty]

For example, when it was in Boston before the ECAC & HE split, nobody wasted any time bragging about Boston being a great place to have the finals.

That's actually not true.  People waxed rhapsodic about the wonders of Boston and the Garden until you'd swear Doris Kearns Goodwin was blowing them under the table.

[Trotsky]

More appropriate:

[adamw]

If the difficulty in getting to Lake Placid was such a problem, why was attendance in Lake Placid consistently higher than Albany?

Listed below, attendance for the semifinal (where possible) / final... Obviously, the years Cornell was in the final positively affected attendance in both places in just about the same way ... though for Albany, that only mattered early on - not in later years.  None of those Lake Placid finals were ever nearly as bad as Albany's worst years. And this is in an 8500-seat arena, so it looks better -- something TV is interested in.  NESN broadcast a few of those years, without issue - though with local production companies.


1993: ---- / 7867
1994: ---- / 6316
1995: ---- / 6562
1996: ---- / 8300
1997: ---- / 8081
1998: ---- / 5289
1999: ---- / 8469
2000: 5389 / 6790
2001: 4990 / 6256
2002: 5422 / 6518

2003: 6936 / 8296
2004: 5641 / 6489
2005: 7580 / 8637
2006: 6255 / 7093
2007: 4484 / 5565
2008: 5074 / 4851
2009: 3517 / 4857
2010: ? / 6505

2011: 3351 / 4126
2012: 3462 / 4131

[Beeeej]

If the difficulty in getting to Lake Placid was such a problem, why was attendance in Lake Placid consistently higher than Albany?

2000: 5389 / 6790
2001: 4990 / 6256
2002: 5422 / 6518

2003: 6936 / 8296
2004: 5641 / 6489
2005: 7580 / 8637
2006: 6255 / 7093

Attendance in Albany certainly declined in recent years. But it's hard to see how you can look at the last three years in Lake Placid, and the first four in Albany, and say that attendance was "consistently" higher in the former than in the latter.  That's especially true when you take into account the fact that Cornell was in Lake Placid the last three years the tournament was there, yet attendance was significantly higher for Cornell's appearances in Albany in 2003, 2005, and 2006 (ETA: and Union and RPI weren't there in those three years to skew the numbers to local fans).

[adamw]

Nice cherry picking of data ... are you a lawyer or something?

Cornell was there - but 2003 and 2005 are equivalent in fan interest to 1996 and 1997 ... Attendance didn't wane in Lake Placid because it was Lake Placid.  Attendance waned in Lake Placid because not as many Cornell fans went in those years as in 1996 and 1997.

Attendance waned in Albany at a faster clip.

And good job not including 1999 in your LP cherry picking

[Beeeej]

Nice cherry picking of data ... are you a lawyer or something?

Cornell was there - but 2003 and 2005 are equivalent in fan interest to 1996 and 1997 ... Attendance didn't wane in Lake Placid because it was Lake Placid.  Attendance waned in Lake Placid because not as many Cornell fans went in those years as in 1996 and 1997.

Attendance waned in Albany at a faster clip.

And good job not including 1999 in your LP cherry picking

First of all, 2003 felt like our year, but in the moment, 2002 felt like our year, too - mostly because 2003 hadn't happened yet.  There was plenty of enthusiasm for Cornell being there, and being back in the title game - and unless people on this board are willing to come forward and say, "I wasn't excited about Cornell hockey in 2002, so I didn't go," I simply and straightforwardly doubt your premise.

Accuse me of cherry-picking all you want, but it's quite obvious to me and everyone else that attendance was at one level in Lake Placid, then after the tournament was moved to Albany, it was at a higher level.  I didn't say that attendance was down because it was in Lake Placid, I simply said it was lower in Lake Placid for the few years before Albany, and higher in Albany for the few years after Lake Placid.

Your explanation for that is basically "Attendance was down because fewer people went."

Ya think?

[adamw]

Say what you will - but Lake Placid's numbers are higher than Albany's numbers - even with two big bumps caused by high enthusiasm over Cornell's 2003 and 2005 seasons.

I don't see how you can look at those two sets of numbers and conclude that people stayed away from Lake Placid because of its difficulty in getting there - or for reasons that demonstrably outweigh Albany's negatives.

[nyc94]

I don't want to take sides or get involved in this discussion beyond noting that every year the tournament was in Lake Placid one or both of Clarkson and St. Lawrence was there. They had far fewer appearances in Albany.

[Beeeej]

Say what you will - but Lake Placid's numbers are higher than Albany's numbers - even with two big bumps caused by high enthusiasm over Cornell's 2003 and 2005 seasons.

I don't see how you can look at those two sets of numbers and conclude that people stayed away from Lake Placid because of its difficulty in getting there - or for reasons that demonstrably outweigh Albany's negatives.

Fine, then let's answer your actual question:  "If the difficulty in getting to Lake Placid was such a problem, why was attendance in Lake Placid consistently higher than Albany?"

Because either Clarkson or St. Lawrence was always there.

And because Lake Placid made their entire town become the ECAC tournament for three days every year - and hundreds of locals went to the games because that's what was going on that weekend.  Mostly, Albany locals couldn't care less unless RPI and Union are there.

Lake Placid locals have no difficulty and no major time commitment getting there, no issue with absurdly high hotel prices, no problem with draconian hotel cancellation policies that could cost them hundreds of dollars if their team of choice doesn't win their quarterfinal round, and no need to wait for an hour to get a table at one of the five restaurants worth eating in.  We did.  And we do.  Lake Placid is a magical hockey wonderland, and I pooped rainbows and danced jigs with cartoon bluebirds on my shoulders every time I went there for the tournament, but I still hated what was required of me to get there and be there.

So if a difference - and an arguable one, at that - in attendance because of local interest is worth it to the ECACHL to move the tournament back to Lake Placid, despite the horrorshow that it means for the actual fans of the actual teams that will be playing there, then have at it.  If Lake Placid's Chamber of Commerce comes through with a financial guarantee that makes Albany's look like change from a shoeshine, marvelous, let's grab the brass ring and suck up our objections to the Olympic sheet.  But let's not pretend that a Lake Placid tournament is a panacea for all that ails the ECACHL, or that we should get down on our hands and knees and beg them to take us back after we screwed them.

[adamw]

So if a difference - and an arguable one, at that - in attendance because of local interest is worth it to the ECACHL to move the tournament back to Lake Placid, despite the horrorshow that it means for the actual fans of the actual teams that will be playing there, then have at it. If Lake Placid's Chamber of Commerce comes through with a financial guarantee that makes Albany's look like change from a shoeshine, marvelous, let's grab the brass ring and suck up our objections to the Olympic sheet. But let's not pretend that a Lake Placid tournament is a panacea for all that ails the ECACHL, or that we should get down on our hands and knees and beg them to take us back after we screwed them.

I never claimed that. It's the best of a set of mediocre-to-poor options, for reasons I've articulated, or tried to.  In fact, I even said in the original article, that even if attendance in LP wasn't great either, it was still worth it, since it won't be great anywhere else anyway.

[Chris '03]

If the difficulty in getting to Lake Placid was such a problem, why was attendance in Lake Placid consistently higher than Albany?

Listed below, attendance for the semifinal (where possible) / final... Obviously, the years Cornell was in the final positively affected attendance in both places in just about the same way ... though for Albany, that only mattered early on - not in later years.  None of those Lake Placid finals were ever nearly as bad as Albany's worst years. And this is in an 8500-seat arena, so it looks better -- something TV is interested in.  NESN broadcast a few of those years, without issue - though with local production companies.


1993: ---- / 7867- CCT, B, H, RPI
1994: ---- / 6316- H, RPI, CCT, B
1995: ---- / 6562- RPI, PU, CCT, Cg
1996: ---- / 8300- CU, H, UVm, CCT
1997: ---- / 8081- CU, CCT, RPI, PU
1998: ---- / 5289- PU, CCT, H, Y, CU
1999: ---- / 8469- CCT, SLU, RPI, PU, Cg
2000: 5389 / 6790- SLU, RPI, Cg, CU, CCT
2001: 4990 / 6256- SLU, CU, H, D, UVm
2002: 5422 / 6518- H, CU, RPI, CCT, D

2003: 6936 / 8296- CU, H, D, B
2004: 5641 / 6489- H, CCT, Cg, D
2005: 7580 / 8637- CU, H, Cg, UVm
2006: 6255 / 7093- H, CU, D, Cg
2007: 4484 / 5565- CCT, Q, SLU, D
2008: 5074 / 4851- PU, H, CU, Cg
2009: 3517 / 4857- Y, CU, SLU, PU
2010: ? / 6505- CU, U, C, SLU

2011: 3351 / 4126- Y, CU, D, Cg
2012: 3462 / 4131- U, H, CU, Cg

It's worth noting that LP lucked out to have a north country team there every year. I've added the participants above. 1999 had BOTH teams in the FINAL. Also, for five of those years, the championship weekend included five teams instead of four. With LP's hotel policies, that typically meant folks stuck there for the weekend like it or not, win or lose unless you day trip from Potsdam, Canton, or Burlington.

Finally, UVm used to be a "close" school to LP. They're not in the mix anymore as potential day trippers to a LP championship.

Don't get me wrong, I loved going to LP and the sense of community that developed when the whole town welcomed ECAC fans.  I just don't think it's practical to hold a championship in a remote location and expect to grow interest in the event beyond the hard core "I'd follow my team russia" type fans.