Generic Off Season Thread

[redice]

For example, when it was in Boston before the ECAC & HE split, nobody wasted any time bragging about Boston being a great place to have the finals.

That's actually not true.  People waxed rhapsodic about the wonders of Boston and the Garden until you'd swear Doris Kearns Goodwin was blowing them under the table.

From whom was that rhapsody coming?   I don't recall hearing any of it from league officials.   I know the average ECAC hockey fan was always thrilled to be heading to Boston each March.    And proud to tell their friends of it.   After all, a trip to Boston was fun!!  Remember, at that point, the idea of moving the tournament was not really on the table.  It was held in Boston and that's the way it was!!  So, hyping the Boston location was not necessarily a propaganda tool to convince the constituency that having the tournament there was/is a good idea.    Now that the tournament seems to have no permanent home, we'll live with this constant salesmanship from the League office.

[Beeeej]

So if a difference - and an arguable one, at that - in attendance because of local interest is worth it to the ECACHL to move the tournament back to Lake Placid, despite the horrorshow that it means for the actual fans of the actual teams that will be playing there, then have at it. If Lake Placid's Chamber of Commerce comes through with a financial guarantee that makes Albany's look like change from a shoeshine, marvelous, let's grab the brass ring and suck up our objections to the Olympic sheet. But let's not pretend that a Lake Placid tournament is a panacea for all that ails the ECACHL, or that we should get down on our hands and knees and beg them to take us back after we screwed them.

I never claimed that. It's the best of a set of mediocre-to-poor options, for reasons I've articulated, or tried to.  In fact, I even said in the original article, that even if attendance in LP wasn't great either, it was still worth it, since it won't be great anywhere else anyway.

You're in a vanishingly small minority who feels that it's the best of our options.

[adamw]

It's worth noting that LP lucked out to have a north country team there every year. I've added the participants above. 1999 had BOTH teams in the FINAL. Also, for five of those years, the championship weekend included five teams instead of four. With LP's hotel policies, that typically meant folks stuck there for the weekend like it or not, win or lose unless you day trip from Potsdam, Canton, or Burlington.

Finally, UVm used to be a "close" school to LP. They're not in the mix anymore as potential day trippers to a LP championship.

Don't get me wrong, I loved going to LP and the sense of community that developed when the whole town welcomed ECAC fans.  I just don't think it's practical to hold a championship in a remote location and expect to grow interest in the event beyond the hard core "I'd follow my team russia" type fans.

All good points ... but I think my point is that, you're not growing interest beyond what it is already. That's been tried, and failed - it's like tilting at windmills. So might as well have it in a great place that brings a great connotation to the ECAC. And again, I understand the issues with getting there and hotels, etc... It's not like I haven't gone myself every year since 1995.

By the way - there may have been 5 teams in some years, but Princeton doesn't count

[adamw]

I would be more than happy, for logistical reasons, if the tournament was in Bridgeport or Albany too ... I've argued, at times, for both of those as well.  Well, not so much "argued," as basically resigned myself to the fact that that's the best place for it, all things considered.  There is no home run.  There is no option that solves all ills, or most ills, or barely any ills.  Lake Placid has the most potential to do some good for the league, as little as that potential might be.  All other options are basically "let's have it in the most convenient place for hardcore fans to go, while also being in a respectable hockey building."  And that's a perfectly good argument.  But that's all it is.

[Beeeej]

Lake Placid has the most potential to do some good for the league, as little as that potential might be.  All other options are basically "let's have it in the most convenient place for hardcore fans to go, while also being in a respectable hockey building."  And that's a perfectly good argument.  But that's all it is.

Yes, that's all it is.  But as arguments go, for most of us, it sounds an awful lot better than "Let's have it in the least convenient place for hardcore fans to go."

I have no desire to spend time in Bridgeport, but I guarantee you it's an easier decision for me than Lake Placid.

[Rita]

Would the league consider a rotation (once every 3 years) among Albany, Bridgeport and Hartford/Providence (we could even put LP in here to make Adam happy)? The rationale is that each venue would get the ECACs once every 3 years, and free them up to bid for the "higher profile" NC$$ basketball first/second round games in the off years.

This would decrease the rate of venues gettting stale, and still keep the tourney within a decent (reasonable) drive for most of the ECAC teams and their fans.

I personally think they should move the tourney to Estero, but that is for totally selfish reasons .

[adamw]

Yes, that's all it is.  But as arguments go, for most of us, it sounds an awful lot better than "Let's have it in the least convenient place for hardcore fans to go."

Well, "least convenient for most Cornell fans" perhaps ... but that's not everyone.  Something tells me Atlantic City was "least convenient" for most people, among all recent options.  Lake Placid would be more convenient than anything else for Clarkson and St. Lawrence fans. Something tells me it's their top choice.  It would also be more convenient than, say, Providence for RPI and Union fans.

The only other fan base that really matters is Cornell's - and granted, of course, it's the biggest one.  Yale, Quinnipiac, Dartmouth and Brown fans do exist in decent amounts - but they didn't exactly come to Albany anyway.  They would all certainly go, moreso, to Providence/Bridgeport - but how much?

[Beeeej]

Well, "least convenient for most Cornell fans" perhaps ... but that's not everyone.  Something tells me Atlantic City was "least convenient" for most people, among all recent options.  Lake Placid would be more convenient than anything else for Clarkson and St. Lawrence fans. Something tells me it's their top choice.

"This location would be the most convenient option for that small portion of fans who already live in the middle of fuc goshdarn nowhere" isn't exactly the most glowing recommendation, either.

[RichH]

If the difficulty in getting to Lake Placid was such a problem, why was attendance in Lake Placid consistently higher than Albany?

Listed below, attendance for the semifinal (where possible) / final... Obviously, the years Cornell was in the final positively affected attendance in both places in just about the same way ... though for Albany, that only mattered early on - not in later years.  None of those Lake Placid finals were ever nearly as bad as Albany's worst years. And this is in an 8500-seat arena, so it looks better -- something TV is interested in.  NESN broadcast a few of those years, without issue - though with local production companies.


1993: ---- / 7867- CCT, B, H, RPI
1994: ---- / 6316- H, RPI, CCT, B
1995: ---- / 6562- RPI, PU, CCT, Cg
1996: ---- / 8300- CU, H, UVm, CCT
1997: ---- / 8081- CU, CCT, RPI, PU
1998: ---- / 5289- PU, CCT, H, Y, CU
1999: ---- / 8469- CCT, SLU, RPI, PU, Cg
2000: 5389 / 6790- SLU, RPI, Cg, CU, CCT
2001: 4990 / 6256- SLU, CU, H, D, UVm
2002: 5422 / 6518- H, CU, RPI, CCT, D

2003: 6936 / 8296- CU, H, D, B
2004: 5641 / 6489- H, CCT, Cg, D
2005: 7580 / 8637- CU, H, Cg, UVm
2006: 6255 / 7093- H, CU, D, Cg
2007: 4484 / 5565- CCT, Q, SLU, D
2008: 5074 / 4851- PU, H, CU, Cg
2009: 3517 / 4857- Y, CU, SLU, PU
2010: ? / 6505- CU, U, C, SLU

2011: 3351 / 4126- Y, CU, D, Cg
2012: 3462 / 4131- U, H, CU, Cg

It's worth noting that LP lucked out to have a north country team there every year. I've added the participants above. 1999 had BOTH teams in the FINAL. Also, for five of those years, the championship weekend included five teams instead of four. With LP's hotel policies, that typically meant folks stuck there for the weekend like it or not, win or lose unless you day trip from Potsdam, Canton, or Burlington.

Finally, UVm used to be a "close" school to LP. They're not in the mix anymore as potential day trippers to a LP championship.

Don't get me wrong, I loved going to LP and the sense of community that developed when the whole town welcomed ECAC fans.  I just don't think it's practical to hold a championship in a remote location and expect to grow interest in the event beyond the hard core "I'd follow my team russia" type fans.

This.  It's fine to argue that Cornell has an attendance impact at any venue, but the '96-'97 tournaments also had the immense enthusiasm for that UVM team behind it as well.  2009 was the first year of this run for Union, and the recent success & local coverage would probably have driven a theoretical Albany tournament final back over 8k (IMO).  

Another thing to think about when considering the "Cornell bump" in a historical sense is that from 1996-2001, Cornell didn't have much success past the ECACs.  A league championship was all shiny and new to a decade's worth of fans.  Since 2002, when Cornell started becoming a regular NCAA attendee, I feel there has been a de-emphasis on the importance of the ECAC tournament in the casual-to-moderate CU hockey fan.  1996-97 was such a cathartic eruption and I feel we valued those League Championships more than recent ones.  The 2003 team drove a LOT of interest in the "we're here for the entire ride" sense. By 2005, I felt more people milled around saying "yeah, yeah, this is a nice cup...now, what regional are we going to?"  

More interest in NCAA success means more people are going to save up their "travel chits" with their work/family/social/monetary lives for potential NCAA Regional and Frozen Four trips.  If there's somewhere central (like Albany/Bridgeport/Hartford), that could be an easy/cheap drive/train, then it seems less like a trek & could keep those casual-to-moderate fans coming, while they wouldn't to Lake Placid OR Atlantic City.

[adamw]

Another thing to think about when considering the "Cornell bump" in a historical sense is that from 1996-2001, Cornell didn't have much success past the ECACs.  A league championship was all shiny and new to a decade's worth of fans.  Since 2002, when Cornell started becoming a regular NCAA attendee, I feel there has been a de-emphasis on the importance of the ECAC tournament in the casual-to-moderate CU hockey fan.  1996-97 was such a cathartic eruption and I feel we valued those League Championships more than recent ones.  The 2003 team drove a LOT of interest in the "we're here for the entire ride" sense. By 2005, I felt more people milled around saying "yeah, yeah, this is a nice cup...now, what regional are we going to?"

That's precisely what I meant, before Beeeej decided to mock me for it

Cornell fans were far more interested in the 1996 and 1997 ECACs than the later ones in L.P. - then there was a big bump in 2003 and 2005 - but not so much the later Albany ones. For the reasons you articulate, and that I referred to.

I don't think the "bump" in 2003 was because the tournament had moved to Albany. Put that year's tournament on the moon, and it would've gotten 8,000.

[ursusminor]

Wasn't one of the problems with LP the fact that the coaches felt, rightly or wrongly, that the olympic ice-size rink there hurt them in the NCAA tourney?

[Chris '03]

Wasn't one of the problems with LP the fact that the coaches felt, rightly or wrongly, that the olympic ice-size rink there hurt them in the NCAA tourney?

Yes. And that would be a louder gripe now that the NCAA has moved away from olympic sheets for regionals.

[Beeeej]

That's precisely what I meant, before Beeeej decided to mock me for it

Cornell fans were far more interested in the 1996 and 1997 ECACs than the later ones in L.P. - then there was a big bump in 2003 and 2005 - but not so much the later Albany ones. For the reasons you articulate, and that I referred to.

Again, I'll disagree, and I'll try not to mock you:  Without having the perspective of the even better year we would have in 2003, we felt that absolutely ran away with the regular season in 2002, finishing so far ahead of Clarkson that they needed the Hubble telescope to see us.  The expectations for that team were very high, and we hadn't won a title in five years after coming fairly close in 2000 and 2001.  Again, I'll ask - did anyone on this board who went to Albany in 2003 decline to go to Lake Placid in 2002 because they weren't as excited about Cornell hockey?

Maybe it was Spring Break or something.  Who really remembers that far back?  :-)

[adamw]

The expectations for that team were very high, and we hadn't won a title in five years after coming fairly close in 2000 and 2001.  Again, I'll ask - did anyone on this board who went to Albany in 2003 decline to go to Lake Placid in 2002 because they weren't as excited about Cornell hockey?

Well, I recall things differently. Expectations may have been high in 2002 - but Cornell was ranked No. 1 for most of 2002-03, and raised expectations even higher. The fever pitch was monumental. Anything short of a Frozen Four would've been considered a disaster.  There was an enormous groundswell that built through the entire year.  I suspect you don't know all 8,000 people who showed up, so perhaps the group we all know would've went to 2002 and 2003.  But do you really believe there was not a huge upswing in interest that year from "the masses"?

[French Rage]

I say we have Adam and Beeej fight in a cage match.  Two men enter, one ECAC tournament location is chosen!