Clarkson hockey players face sex charges

[KeithK]

[quote Jerseygirl]First off all, for those of you who think that the guys who perpetrated this crime, if they indeed are found guilty, shouldn't have to "have their lives ruined" by such a "minor thing."[/quote]
What I said early in the thread was "Hopefully the kids don't have their college hockey careers ruined over something insignificant," after stating the assumption that this was an age of consent issue.  I stand by that statement.  If the charges are just about age of consent then it is a minor issue, even if it's technically a crime, and I hope it doesn't ruin these kids hockey careers/lives.

From your experiences you are convinced that it was something more. You may be right. If the players forced themselves on the victim then they deserve whatever they get.

There's some grey area between the two extremes too.

[DisplacedCornellian]

[quote Jerseygirl]
if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape.
[/quote]

This has always seemed a bit fuzzy to me.  At what point of drinking does the ability to give consent disappear?  Clearly, an unconscious individual cannot give consent.  But how drunk is too drunk?  Can a drunk MAN consent to sex, or has every drunk dude who ever got some been raped?  

The idea of anybody having some drinks, having "consensual" sex, and then regretting it the next morning and accusing the other of rape just seems wrong.

[ugarte]

[quote Josh '99][quote Jerseygirl]--That's the tip of the iceberg. I have more stories. My friends have more stories. And while they don't necessarily include male athletes dragging women off by the hair, they do include coercion, shame, embarrassment, and, if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape. [/quote]I don't think any of this is untrue, but it's hardly unique to hockey players (or athletes in general) either.[/quote]
This isn't exactly a counterpoint.

[Jerseygirl]

[quote KeithK][quote Jerseygirl]First off all, for those of you who think that the guys who perpetrated this crime, if they indeed are found guilty, shouldn't have to "have their lives ruined" by such a "minor thing."[/quote]
What I said early in the thread was "Hopefully the kids don't have their college hockey careers ruined over something insignificant," after stating the assumption that this was an age of consent issue.  I stand by that statement.  If the charges are just about age of consent then it is a minor issue, even if it's technically a crime, and I hope it doesn't ruin these kids hockey careers/lives.

From your experiences you are convinced that it was something more. You may be right. If the players forced themselves on the victim then they deserve whatever they get.

There's some grey area between the two extremes too.[/quote]

I'm not necessarily convinced it's something more than a strict age of consent issue. What disappoints me about your statement is that you default to "oh noes, teh poor menz!" and don't acknowledge that if this crime was perpetrated, even as a strict age of consent issue, there's negative fallout for the victim, too.* If they are convicted of this crime (even if it's a stupid law, which I think it is), they deserve whatever they get. They broke a law. Shouldn't have done it. Should have thought about that before they potentially put their hockey careers on the line.

*Remember that women are constantly judged, shamed, and valued or disvalued because of their sexuality. She doesn't just get to walk away from this.

[Jerseygirl]

[quote DisplacedCornellian][quote Jerseygirl]
if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape.
[/quote]

This has always seemed a bit fuzzy to me.  At what point of drinking does the ability to give consent disappear?  Clearly, an unconscious individual cannot give consent.  But how drunk is too drunk?  Can a drunk MAN consent to sex, or has every drunk dude who ever got some been raped?  

The idea of anybody having some drinks, having "consensual" sex, and then regretting it the next morning and accusing the other of rape just seems wrong.[/quote]

I'm not a criminal lawyer (or any kind of lawyer), but I would think that if you can blow a .08, you're not able to consent.

It's definitely fuzzy. What I really have a problem with is men, who may or may not be legally drunk, or who are at least measurably less drunk than their partners, having sex with (raping) women who are waaaaaaasted. Stumbling, incoherent, etc., and thinking that's ok. No one steps in and says, "Dude, not cool. Rape." I'm not naive, I don't think that this will ever stop; I don't think it's human nature to be able to stop it. What we CAN do that would be productive is destigmatize sex so the woman can leave the situation in the morning (or whenever she chooses) with her dignity intact. She's not teased, catcalled, shamed, embarrassed. Of course, that would take away the entitled douchebags' fun little game, but c'est la vie.

[Jerseygirl]

[quote ugarte][quote Josh '99][quote Jerseygirl]--That's the tip of the iceberg. I have more stories. My friends have more stories. And while they don't necessarily include male athletes dragging women off by the hair, they do include coercion, shame, embarrassment, and, if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape. [/quote]I don't think any of this is untrue, but it's hardly unique to hockey players (or athletes in general) either.[/quote]
This isn't exactly a counterpoint.[/quote]

Yeah, I definitely didn't mean to limit my statement to hockey players, or male athletes. It applies to any entitled prick who thinks women owe him something by virtue of his ability to draw breath.

[KeithK]

[quote Jerseygirl]I'm not necessarily convinced it's something more than a strict age of consent issue. What disappoints me about your statement is that you default to "oh noes, teh poor menz!" and don't acknowledge that if this crime was perpetrated, even as a strict age of consent issue, there's negative fallout for the victim, too.* If they are convicted of this crime (even if it's a stupid law, which I think it is), they deserve whatever they get. They broke a law. Shouldn't have done it. Should have thought about that before they potentially put their hockey careers on the line.

*Remember that women are constantly judged, shamed, and valued or disvalued because of their sexuality. She doesn't just get to walk away from this.[/quote]
No.  If all they are guilty of is having completely consenual sex with a 16 year old girl, then IMO they don't deserve to be punished or suffer significant consequences. It is a silly law as written. Just because it is the law does NOT make it right.  One can come up with many examples of unjust laws but I won't Godwin the thread by mentioning some obvious examples.

As for the victim, if it was simply consensual sex with a 16 year old in violation of a silly law then there is no victim.  Unless you also think a woman is a victim anytime she agrees to have sex with a guy who turns out to be an asshole.

[RichH]

[quote KeithK]
As for the victim, if it was simply consensual sex with a 16 year old in violation of a silly law then there is no victim.[/quote]

Except that (using your assumption of being purely consensual) this law publicizes what is often meant to be a private act/relationship.  As we're seeing in this post, it effects the reputation (at the very least) of both parties.  The overage person gets "sex crime" publicity and the underage person will now appear to be "promiscuous" or "slutty" in the eyes of peers, parents, etc. when that may not be the case.

[RichH]

[quote Jerseygirl]--They perpetuated a culture of female shame, and it was something I often felt I was fighting all by myself. If someone they slept with walked by them in the dining hall, their entire table would stare, point, whisper, etc. as if they were children. At one point when I was being subjected to this, I took a bite of pork teriyaki, chewed it, and opened my mouth at them. That stopped that. [/quote]

Huh?  I'm confused about this point.  Are you saying that you stopped their childish behavior by doing something childish yourself?  How does that preserve your dignity?  By out-grossing them?

Otherwise, an epic post from a perspective many of us don't think about.

[Jerseygirl]

[quote KeithK][quote Jerseygirl]I'm not necessarily convinced it's something more than a strict age of consent issue. What disappoints me about your statement is that you default to "oh noes, teh poor menz!" and don't acknowledge that if this crime was perpetrated, even as a strict age of consent issue, there's negative fallout for the victim, too.* If they are convicted of this crime (even if it's a stupid law, which I think it is), they deserve whatever they get. They broke a law. Shouldn't have done it. Should have thought about that before they potentially put their hockey careers on the line.

*Remember that women are constantly judged, shamed, and valued or disvalued because of their sexuality. She doesn't just get to walk away from this.[/quote]
No.  If all they are guilty of is having completely consenual sex with a 16 year old girl, then IMO they don't deserve to be punished or suffer significant consequences. It is a silly law as written. Just because it is the law does NOT make it right.  One can come up with many examples of unjust laws but I won't Godwin the thread by mentioning some obvious examples.

As for the victim, if it was simply consensual sex with a 16 year old in violation of a silly law then there is no victim.  Unless you also think a woman is a victim anytime she agrees to have sex with a guy who turns out to be an asshole.[/quote]

We agree that it's a silly law, where we differ is that I believe its existence as a law means it should be enforced, and those who break it should be subject to consequences. If it's a simple matter of consent, it's my personal belief that these guys shouldn't be kicked off the team for ever and ever.

As for your second paragraph, I'm going to go ahead and answer as if it's not rhetorical. Here's the short answer summarizing my very complicated feelings: do I believe that a woman (or in this case, a girl) is a victim anytime she agrees to have sex with a guy who turns out to be an asshole? No. BUT, I do know that many, many assholes work very hard to try to make their sex partners feel like shit for their decision to sleep with said assholes. That is victimization. Yes, women and girls control their own emotions, but society places on us a heavy, heavy burden to feel shame about our perfectly natural desires.

[Jerseygirl]

[quote RichH][quote Jerseygirl]--They perpetuated a culture of female shame, and it was something I often felt I was fighting all by myself. If someone they slept with walked by them in the dining hall, their entire table would stare, point, whisper, etc. as if they were children. At one point when I was being subjected to this, I took a bite of pork teriyaki, chewed it, and opened my mouth at them. That stopped that. [/quote]

Huh?  I'm confused about this point.  Are you saying that you stopped their childish behavior by doing something childish yourself?  How does that preserve your dignity?  By out-grossing them?

Otherwise, an epic post from a perspective many of us don't think about.[/quote]

Well, basically, that is what I'm saying. I was 19, frustrated, and didn't know what else to do. It was definitely an act of frustration, not of grace. Those came later, after I grew up a little.

And thank you.

[KeithK]

[quote RichH][quote KeithK]
As for the victim, if it was simply consensual sex with a 16 year old in violation of a silly law then there is no victim.[/quote]

Except that (using your assumption of being purely consensual) this law publicizes what is often meant to be a private act/relationship.  As we're seeing in this post, it effects the reputation (at the very least) of both parties.  The overage person gets "sex crime" publicity and the underage person will now appear to be "promiscuous" or "slutty" in the eyes of peers, parents, etc. when that may not be the case.[/quote]
Sure.  But I'm talking about the underlying act (consensual sex).  There's no victim and really no crime.  Eliminate the criminal charges and the publicity goes away.

[RichH]

[quote Jerseygirl][quote DisplacedCornellian][quote Jerseygirl]
if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape.
[/quote]

This has always seemed a bit fuzzy to me.  At what point of drinking does the ability to give consent disappear?  Clearly, an unconscious individual cannot give consent.  But how drunk is too drunk?  Can a drunk MAN consent to sex, or has every drunk dude who ever got some been raped?  

The idea of anybody having some drinks, having "consensual" sex, and then regretting it the next morning and accusing the other of rape just seems wrong.[/quote]

I'm not a criminal lawyer (or any kind of lawyer), but I would think that if you can blow a .08, you're not able to consent. [/quote]

And this is a big point of argument here.  I know I've been able to make decisions (some of them rational and socially responsible) when I've been over the legal limit to operate a vehicle.  Few of them probably tip-toe the line of the law as sexual consent does, but I know I have been able to reason while legally drunk.  (For the record, I've also made some poor decisions while impaired.  i.e. "Hey, let's bring our beer TO the Hot Truck!")

Alcohol effects people differently.  For some it impairs judgement more, for some it impairs motor skills more.  But to say that there's a magical number where at .07 it's consensual, and .08 it's rape reinforces to me the fuzziness.

I don't consider it rape, because I had determined at the beginning of the evening that I would sleep with the player.

Now here's where I think you lose something on your argument. (I'm no lawyer either)  This is bringing in "intent" or some sort of pre-consent.  Someone hearing your story could say it was rape.  "no, no...it's ok.  I told myself I would sleep with him before."  Well, if you were HAMMERED when he actually asked for consent, isn't that rape to someone who isn't inside your head?  And couldn't that be the same situation to at least some of the "too drunk to give consent" rapes you've known about?

And what happens if the guy is just as drunk as the girl as a night goes on?  There are the "one thing leads to another" things, and not all situations are simply men being predatory and lecherous.   Can't women be the instigators for "too drunk sex" too?

[KeithK]

[quote Jerseygirl]We agree that it's a silly law, where we differ is that I believe its existence as a law means it should be enforced, and those who break it should be subject to consequences. If it's a simple matter of consent, it's my personal belief that these guys shouldn't be kicked off the team for ever and ever. [/quote]
Fine.  It's been said that the best way to get rid of a stupid law is to enforce it.  Maybe we should strictly and ruthlessly enforce laws about underage drinking too.

[quote Jerseygirl]As for your second paragraph, I'm going to go ahead and answer as if it's not rhetorical. Here's the short answer summarizing my very complicated feelings: do I believe that a woman (or in this case, a girl) is a victim anytime she agrees to have sex with a guy who turns out to be an asshole? No. BUT, I do know that many, many assholes work very hard to try to make their sex partners feel like shit for their decision to sleep with said assholes. That is victimization. Yes, women and girls control their own emotions, but society places on us a heavy, heavy burden to feel shame about our perfectly natural desires.[/quote]
An age old problem with a simple solution.  Women should spend less time on Adonis-like hockey players who turn into assholes and more on geeky hockey fans who are obviously sweet and lovable. :-)

[Jerseygirl]

[quote Jerseygirl]As for your second paragraph, I'm going to go ahead and answer as if it's not rhetorical. Here's the short answer summarizing my very complicated feelings: do I believe that a woman (or in this case, a girl) is a victim anytime she agrees to have sex with a guy who turns out to be an asshole? No. BUT, I do know that many, many assholes work very hard to try to make their sex partners feel like shit for their decision to sleep with said assholes. That is victimization. Yes, women and girls control their own emotions, but society places on us a heavy, heavy burden to feel shame about our perfectly natural desires.[/quote]
An age old problem with a simple solution.  Women should spend less time on Adonis-like hockey players who turn into assholes and more on geeky hockey fans who are obviously sweet and lovable. :-)[/quote]

Ha. I KNEW this was going to be said eventually...I've had both, and the Adonis-like hockey players who turned into assholes eventually turned out to be good guys...I'm good friends with one, and another came to my rescue when I was in a bad situation in a foreign country. The geeky hockey fan I dated ended up being emotionally abusive and those are two years I won't get back. :-( YMMV, of course.