Clarkson hockey players face sex charges

[clarksongirl]

are you kidding? these guys got what was coming to them. as a girl here at clarkson i can tell you it happens more than you think. our hockey players are rapists on ice. i hope their four years of getting free education, wasting the schools money, getting unfair treatment from teachers and the administration is entirely ruined. just because you can ice skate doesnt mean you have the right to rape someone. lets think about this here, what are three 18 to 19 year old boys doing spending time with a 16 year old girl? what are the chances she just decided to have sex with all three? thank god she went to the police, because here on campus those players get away with murder, or rape rather. these boys are allowed to drink ON CAMPUS, throw parties, get girls drunk to the point they can no longer stand, and then play this cute little game where they have sex with her, then switch out with another hockey player. making our school proud. so please dont defend these boys, because they are an embarrassment to the rest of the students here at clarkson.

[clarksongirl]

i have already stated this, but you seem to share the same opinion as other people on here who dont go to clarkson. are you kidding? these guys got what was coming to them. as a girl here at clarkson i can tell you it happens more than you think. our hockey players are rapists on ice. i hope their four years of getting free education, wasting the schools money, getting unfair treatment from teachers and the administration is entirely ruined. just because you can ice skate doesnt mean you have the right to rape someone. lets think about this here, what are three 18 to 19 year old boys doing spending time with a 16 year old girl? what are the chances she just decided to have sex with all three? thank god she went to the police, because here on campus those players get away with murder, or rape rather. these boys are allowed to drink ON CAMPUS, throw parties, get girls drunk to the point they can no longer stand, and then play this cute little game where they have sex with her, then switch out with another hockey player. making our school proud. so please dont defend these boys, because they are an embarrassment to the rest of the students here at clarkson.

[Trotsky]

[quote Josh '99]3. He or she engages in sexual conduct with an animal or a dead human body. [/quote]

A.k.a. the Drunk Cheesehead codicil.

[Dpperk29]

[quote clarksongirl]i have already stated this, but you seem to share the same opinion as other people on here who dont go to clarkson. are you kidding? these guys got what was coming to them. as a girl here at clarkson i can tell you it happens more than you think. our hockey players are rapists on ice. i hope their four years of getting free education, wasting the schools money, getting unfair treatment from teachers and the administration is entirely ruined. just because you can ice skate doesnt mean you have the right to rape someone. lets think about this here, what are three 18 to 19 year old boys doing spending time with a 16 year old girl? what are the chances she just decided to have sex with all three? thank god she went to the police, because here on campus those players get away with murder, or rape rather. these boys are allowed to drink ON CAMPUS, throw parties, get girls drunk to the point they can no longer stand, and then play this cute little game where they have sex with her, then switch out with another hockey player. making our school proud. so please dont defend these boys, because they are an embarrassment to the rest of the students here at clarkson.[/quote]

I don't disagree with any of what you said, however I know that when people are between the ages of (approximately) 15-22 make dumb decisions and don't deserve to have there lives ruined because of they had a lapse of judgment.

I did say that I hope that this is nothing major, but IF it is they deserve to be punished however the law sees fits and then suspended from the hockey team for a season.

Now I am not trying to start something, but at some point girls need to say "No I don't want another beer" or just leave the party. I have never seen anyone held against their will at a party and forced to drink more, not at a fraternity, and not at a party hosted by the hockey players.

[Trotsky]

[quote Dpperk29]Now I am not trying to start something, but at some point girls need to say "No I don't want another beer" or just leave the party. I have never seen anyone held against their will at a party and forced to drink more, not at a fraternity, and not at a party hosted by the hockey players.[/quote]

I have two teenage daughters so obviously I am VERY biased.  The problem with your statement is it leaves open the door for interpretations that I'm sure you don't intend: atavistic attitudes that it's the girl's fault, boys will be boys, etc.

You should be able to get as drunk as you want at a party and not be physically harmed.  It's stupid and irresponsible behavior, but drinking is hardly a rarity and all boys are aware of the unwritten rules about what you do and do not do when a girl no longer seems to be making good decisions.

[clarksongirl]

thank you! just because a girl is drinking does not mean that she is at fault for sexual assault. everyone on this board who is saying that they think its a small situation that got blown out of proportion would never say that if they had a daughter up at clarkson. this is not the first time something like this has happened here, with the hockey team's attitude towards women it actually happens far too often. i hope that this girl is not called a liar, and the case ignored. this is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and just because these players are local celebrities does not mean they are above the law.

[andyw2100]

[quote clarksongirl] everyone on this board who is saying that they think its a small situation that got blown out of proportion would never say that if they had a daughter up at clarkson. [/quote]

I think if you re-read this thread you'll see that no one here said that.

There were some people who were trying to infer, based on the charges, that it --might-- not have been as major as, say, felonious rape. That's very different from saying "they think it's a small situation."

It sounds like you have more knowledge of what may have gone on than is being reported. Just understand, please, that others here don't have that information.

[KeithK]

[quote clarksongirl]thank you! just because a girl is drinking does not mean that she is at fault for sexual assault. everyone on this board who is saying that they think its a small situation that got blown out of proportion would never say that if they had a daughter up at clarkson. this is not the first time something like this has happened here, with the hockey team's attitude towards women it actually happens far too often. i hope that this girl is not called a liar, and the case ignored. this is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and just because these players are local celebrities does not mean they are above the law.[/quote]
There are plenty of cases where sexual activity between teenagers has been blown out of proportion and treated as crimes.  So my first reaction to any story of this sort is to wonder whether it fits this pattern.  Without a lot of information to go on (there isn't a lot in the various articles linked here) I'm hesitant to condemn the hockey players.  Clarkson hockey players as a group may be a bunch of misogynists for all I know but that in itself isn't proof that a crime was committed.

[Josh '99]

[quote KeithK][quote clarksongirl]thank you! just because a girl is drinking does not mean that she is at fault for sexual assault. everyone on this board who is saying that they think its a small situation that got blown out of proportion would never say that if they had a daughter up at clarkson. this is not the first time something like this has happened here, with the hockey team's attitude towards women it actually happens far too often. i hope that this girl is not called a liar, and the case ignored. this is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and just because these players are local celebrities does not mean they are above the law.[/quote]
There are plenty of cases where sexual activity between teenagers has been blown out of proportion and treated as crimes. [/quote]Yep.  Given what they were charged with, it's at least possible that this was consensual sexual activity rendered legally non-consensual by virtue of the fact that a person under 17 is deemed incapable of consenting to sexual activity.  So given the information we have, I think it's prudent of us not to condemn these kids just yet.  (See also: Duke lacrosse case.)

[Dpperk29]

[quote Trotsky][quote Dpperk29]Now I am not trying to start something, but at some point girls need to say "No I don't want another beer" or just leave the party. I have never seen anyone held against their will at a party and forced to drink more, not at a fraternity, and not at a party hosted by the hockey players.[/quote]

I have two teenage daughters so obviously I am VERY biased.  The problem with your statement is it leaves open the door for interpretations that I'm sure you don't intend: atavistic attitudes that it's the girl's fault, boys will be boys, etc.

You should be able to get as drunk as you want at a party and not be physically harmed.  It's stupid and irresponsible behavior, but drinking is hardly a rarity and all boys are aware of the unwritten rules about what you do and do not do when a girl no longer seems to be making good decisions.[/quote]

I am certainly not saying it is the girls fault.

I was merely saying that people need to be more aware of the situation that they put themselves in. Being a girl and going out to a party and getting smashed is putting yourself in a bad situation. Its kind of like speeding when you are underage with a case of beer on the back seat of Dad's car, not the brightest move.


Purely speculation, but this seems like one of the cases where a group of people all made several bad decisions. The men made the vast majority of the bad decisions, but the victim also made one bad decision, getting intoxicated to the point where you can't make decisions (I know it is her right, but just because something is your right, doesn't mean it is a good idea to exercise it, i. e. suicide).


The bottom line is that IF these charges are true, the men involved were absolutely wrong, and the girl is innocent. But it could have all been prevented had if the victim had shown better judgment.

[Josh '99]

[quote Dpperk29]Purely speculation, but this seems like one of the cases where a group of people all made several bad decisions. The men made the vast majority of the bad decisions, but the victim also made one bad decision, getting intoxicated to the point where you can't make decisions...[/quote]But she didn't, necessarily, judging from the information at hand.  She could've been stone cold sober and signed a document saying "I want to have sex with these two hockey players" and it would still be sexual misconduct, if they're 18 and she's 16, because a 16-year-old is legally incapable of having consensual sex.  

And if there were evidence that there was alcohol involved, wouldn't they have been charged with possession or something along those lines as well?

[Dpperk29]

[quote Josh '99][quote Dpperk29]Purely speculation, but this seems like one of the cases where a group of people all made several bad decisions. The men made the vast majority of the bad decisions, but the victim also made one bad decision, getting intoxicated to the point where you can't make decisions...[/quote]But she didn't, necessarily, judging from the information at hand.  She could've been stone cold sober and signed a document saying "I want to have sex with these two hockey players" and it would still be sexual misconduct, if they're 18 and she's 16, because a 16-year-old is legally incapable of having consensual sex.  

And if there were evidence that there was alcohol involved, wouldn't they have been charged with possession or something along those lines as well?[/quote]

I was going off the scenario clarksongirl suggested. I realize I mixed hypothetical with reality my mistake.

This is what happens when you mix homework with hockey forums, confusion ensues and things get crossed in my head.

[KeithK]

[quote Josh '99]And if there were evidence that there was alcohol involved, wouldn't they have been charged with possession or something along those lines as well?[/quote]
I;m not sure that's true. I can make up various hypotheticals where there might not be clear evidence to bother with an alcohol related charge. Especially if the complaint was initiated by the victim the next day. I think it's probably a reasonable guess that alcoholo was involved but it can't be anything more than a guess since we just don't know.

[Jerseygirl]

Ok, there's a lot here to which I want to respond, and I'm not quite sure where to start. So if I start to go all over the place, forgive me. Assume "allegedly" where appropriate.

First off all, for those of you who think that the guys who perpetrated this crime, if they indeed are found guilty, shouldn't have to "have their lives ruined" by such a "minor thing." What about the victim? Does she deserve to have her life ruined by the crime? Because even if her entire life doesn't completely fall apart, chances are, she's going to be marked for something that isn't her fault (here would be a good place to add that being underage and wasted at a party, even flirting with these guys, even making out with these guys, doesn't make what happened "her fault." Did it make her more vulnerable? Sure. But she didn't put these guys in a position where it was impossible for them to not break a law. Everyone has agency over themselves, and how they choose to react to situations.)


As for what Dpperk29 said, that perhaps the situation could have been prevented by the girl not getting intoxicated, but guess what? It could have been JUST AS PREVENTED by the guys involved not being total entitled shitheads. Why is it incumbent upon women to a)not get too drunk b) make sure they have a walking buddy for those dark nights crossing the quad! c) not wear anything too revealing that might suggest she's ripe for the pickin'? When are the men going to step up and say, "he could have exercised self-control and decency, and, uh, not broken the law"? Guess what, it's not up to women to do everything conceivably possible to help men not commit sex crimes.


As for "...was merely saying that people need to be more aware of the situation that they put themselves in. Being a girl and going out to a party and getting smashed is putting yourself in a bad situation. Its kind of like speeding when you are underage with a case of beer on the back seat of Dad's car, not the brightest move." -- one of these things is legal, and one of these things is not. (I am assuming in this case that the "girl" who would actually correctly be called a "woman," in this scenario that was presented not specifically, but generally, is 21 or over. Because as I know from committing the great offense of Getting Hammered While Female, I'm still "putting myself in a bad situation" if I'm wasted at a party or bar or whatever, and that, in the minds of many, makes me partially reposnsible for what others choose to do to me. While being drunk and 16 is illegal, it doesn't make what others do to her any more her fault.). It's also not the brightest move for these dudes to go,"heyyyyy...drunk 16 year old...party on!" This last part also bears out if she gave full, stone cold sober consent (well, without the drunk qualifier). The consent law may be dumb, but it's still the law. So if this is "sexual activity that's between teenagers that got blown out of proportion" and one of the participants is 16 and the others are 18 or older, it's still a crime.


As for this: "Now I am not trying to start something, but at some point girls need to say "No I don't want another beer" or just leave the party. I have never seen anyone held against their will at a party and forced to drink more, not at a fraternity, and not at a party hosted by the hockey players." I could go on forever, and probably will. First, have you ever been drunk? And had no actual idea how drunk you are? Because by the time it becomes a good idea to turn down a beer, you're past the point where you know it. You probably haven't seen this behavior because I doubt you are a young woman that a fraternity brother/hockey player/fuhball player/etc. was trying to have sex with. Back in my glory days, I was. And let me tell you, did I see some shit:

-I HAVE had a (sober, by the way,she didn't drink) friend literally, violently, pulled by the arms by a fuhball player who wanted to sleep with her at a frat party. She and I caused enough of a scene that his bros finally showed up and convinced him that he was not being cool, dudebrah.

-Ok, so when I was at Cornell, well...let's just say I had a lot of access to the hockey team and leave it at that. So, to compare apples to apples, or Big Red to Golden Knights, consider the following:
--a player and his friend invited me out to drinks after I got done with work (it was summer). I showed up with a friend at a place that rhymes with Fundar's and they had already bought two pitchers of beer. My glass was never empty the whole night, and I remember the player quickly refilling my glass anytime it got close to empty. The guys ordered shots, we did them. By last call (after about 2 hours of drinking, maybe less), I was so wasted I could barely stand up. We went back to player's apartment. I remember him telling me his address, then asking me to repeat it back. I couldn't do it. We had sex. Now, if I couldn't repeat back something that was just said to me, how could I possibly give consent? I don't consider it rape, because I had determined at the beginning of the evening that I would sleep with the player.
--A friend of mine blacked out at a party once and woke up in a hockey player's bed to him straddling her, naked, saying, "If you're not going to fuck me, then why are you still here?" When she left, he said, "The guys are all awake in the living room. Have fun walking home."
--The guys had this little game they played where they'd leave their bedroom door open while having sex and a teammate would walk by, open the door, and pretend it was an accident. The room's occupant would then say, "oh no, don't worry about it, it's cool," then proceed to invite him in. The gist of this was to coerce the woman into a threesome. In the case where this was tried on me, I screamed, "get the f--- out!" before the door got all the way open, then got up and locked the door myself.
--They perpetuated a culture of female shame, and it was something I often felt I was fighting all by myself. If someone they slept with walked by them in the dining hall, their entire table would stare, point, whisper, etc. as if they were children. At one point when I was being subjected to this, I took a bite of pork teriyaki, chewed it, and opened my mouth at them. That stopped that. Evnetually, some (maybe most?) of them got it through their thick little skulls that I was just a woman who enjoyed having sex with Adonis-like men, and I wasn't seeking the status or approval they were attepting to deny me.
--That's the tip of the iceberg. I have more stories. My friends have more stories. And while they don't necessarily include male athletes dragging women off by the hair, they do include coercion, shame, embarrassment, and, if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape.

The coaches at Cornell, with some exceptions (of which Schaefer is not one), generally run a pretty tight ship with their teams. I'd love to see them have some pretty heavy-handed anti-sexual assault training, if this isn't in place already, and if it is, put something more effective into place.

[Josh '99]

[quote Jerseygirl]--That's the tip of the iceberg. I have more stories. My friends have more stories. And while they don't necessarily include male athletes dragging women off by the hair, they do include coercion, shame, embarrassment, and, if you want to get technical (a drunk woman can't consent to sex), lots o' rape. [/quote]I don't think any of this is untrue, but it's hardly unique to hockey players (or athletes in general) either.