Alumni in the Pros - October 2007

[evilnaturedrobot]

it's because the reason for allowing fighting in hockey is no longer to protect star players or as a deterrent to dangerous play.  This was the reason for fighting in the first place. It worked too, there's a reason why Wayne Gretzky (all 5'11". 180 lbs of him) didn't get hurt more often.  It's because aposing players knew that running him meant tangling with Dave Semenko.

But once you make fighting a choice, it no longer acts as a deterrent.  All I have to do is turtle, as Darius Kasparitis used to do all the time, let you take the instigator, and then go on my marry way. Where's the deterrent? Most fights these days take place between two enforcers that are on the ice just to fight each other.  But what do I care if a guy on my team that is paid to fight drops the gloves with another guy that is also paid to fight?  How does that affect the rest of the team or their behavior?  How does it stop someone from taking a run at a star player?  Or taking liberties with their stick or elbows?  

This is the reason why the instigator is the dumbest rule in sports.

[amerks127]

I saw Ryan O'Byrne play in Rochester during the Bulldog's season opener last night.  The Bulldogs won 3-2 in OT, all goals were even-strength, yet he managed to be +3 with an assist on the game winning goal (in which he set up a 2 on 1).

He was by far their best defenseman out there...especially when you consider that Jon Gleed was -2 for the night.

[RatushnyFan]

[quote Josh '99]Douglas has two assists tonight through two periods, both on goals by Jeremy Roenick.  4 assists in 69 games over the previous two seasons, so two in the first two games this season isn't bad at all.[/quote]
I thought Doug looked strong against Vancouver.  Announcers missed the Roenick deflection at first and thought that Douglas had a goal - they were clueless, they didn't know that it would have been his first.  In any event he played solid and had good ice time.

That youtube clip made it seem like Douglas connected with a big right at the end of the fight.  Torres is a tough guy and incredibly strong, it was a nice scrap.  Congrats to Douglas for getting up twice instead of turtling.

[oceanst41]

Interesting too that if you listen to the announcers at the end of that clip they thought that Torres would get the only extra two, yet it was Murray that got the extra penalties.

[Josh '99]

I don't believe that hockey needs more fighting, and I continue to believe that the right way to prevent dangerous and/or dirty hits is for the league to punish them appropriately.  That being said, if the league isn't going to get its act together and get it right, then the players need to be able to do something about it.

Murray only played about 10 minutes in the Sharks' 6-2 loss in Denver last night.  (I guess maybe because the Sharks spent much of the game trying to catch up.)  He fought Ian Laperriere and was even in +/-, one of only five Sharks not to be a minus on the night.

[Trotsky]

The arguments about fighting come down to a matter of taste.  John knows and likes the European style so he views fighting as barbaric; I know and like the WHL style so I view fighting as an appropriate enforcement strategy.

Fighting can get out of hand.  Most fighting injuries probably happen during line brawls when guys fall, get their knees twisted, get sucker-pucnhed, get cut by an errant skate, etc.  The "leaving the bench" DQ cut down on line brawls and that was a good thing, and the CHL's rules about fighting penalties during the final minutes of blow out games (suspension and league review) helped eliminate some of the Slapshot circus garbage that used to plague junior hockey.

The question is whether lack of fighting can "get out of hand."  It doesn't seem to in the NCAA.  In the NHL, there are players who carry sticks high with relative impunity -- that would last about ten seconds of the next shift in the CHL.  There isn't a problem with high end talent getting hurt in the NHL because the league went overboard protecting its marquee players.  Fighting didn't protect Gretzky after his second year in the league -- you just weren't allowed to check him without going to the box.  This has now extended out to every team's top three or four scorers and it makes the NHL about as interesting as women's no-contact hockey.  They should bring back hard checking, but that also means fighting will come back, as the players enforce the appropriate level of force, themselves.

[French Rage]

[quote RatushnyFan][quote Josh '99]Douglas has two assists tonight through two periods, both on goals by Jeremy Roenick.  4 assists in 69 games over the previous two seasons, so two in the first two games this season isn't bad at all.[/quote]
I thought Doug looked strong against Vancouver.  Announcers missed the Roenick deflection at first and thought that Douglas had a goal - they were clueless, they didn't know that it would have been his first.  In any event he played solid and had good ice time.

That youtube clip made it seem like Douglas connected with a big right at the end of the fight.  Torres is a tough guy and incredibly strong, it was a nice scrap.  Congrats to Douglas for getting up twice instead of turtling.[/quote]

Yeah, looked to me he had the upper hand except when Torres threw him to the ground (which seems like a cheap ploy to avoid the punches).

[evilnaturedrobot]

[quote Trotsky]
 This has now extended out to every team's top three or four scorers and it makes the NHL about as interesting as women's no-contact hockey.  They should bring back hard checking, but that also means fighting will come back, as the players enforce the appropriate level of force, themselves.[/quote]

Honestly, I think this true in only in a selective sense.  It's certainly the case that anybody who gets within breathing distance of Sydney Crosby gets whistled.  But, as a Ranger fan, I've watched Jagr absorb plenty of ugly hits without turning so much as head from the ref.  When I was living out in colorado I saw the same thing with Foppa.  Certain stars, those with larger frames and a physical component to their game, don't enjoy the same protection as smaller players.  

The other problem is that the league can only penalize those hits that it deems to be illegal, and many dangerous hits are perfectly within the rules. I was out in Colorado for the whole Bertuzzi mess.  I don't want to get into the morality of what Bertuzzi did, I feel that it was abhorrent. but Gregg Moore never even thinks about blind-siding Naslund like that if he knows that there are going to be immediate physical repercussions for doing so.  The issue has nothing to do with whether or not the hit was legal, which I believe that it was, but rather that you don't throw a borderline hit on a star player if you know that the opposing teams goon is going to pound you into a pulp on your next shift.  With the protection of the instigator, the range of what you can get away with is so much greater.  Heavy suspensions work just fine if the hit is obviously illegal and there is a clear intent to injure (anybody who watched the Downie hit knew that he was trying to take that Senator's head off.)  But it's impossible to legislate a hit like Moore's out of the game, which was borderline at best and clearly not meant to knock Naslund out the way it did.  The only way stop that sort of hit is to allow a team to self police all dangerous hits laid on their star, regardless of legality.

[KeithK]

[quote evilnaturedrobot]The only way stop that sort of hit is to allow a team to self police all dangerous hits laid on their star, regardless of legality.[/quote]
If a hit is legal then players and teams should man up and accept that it's within the rules.  The proper response is not to send your goon out to start a fight.  It's laying the best legal hits you can on the guy and his teammates.

[evilnaturedrobot]

If I'm the commissioner, I can't find that position acceptable.  I need my stars on the ice, they are less expendable than other players.  What you're proposing is that the other team go out and run the other team's top player, which does happen.  These hits will be just as borderline as the one that started the whole sequence of events in motion, as they will be given to send a message.  A great 'legal' hit can be catching a player coming through the zone with his head down.  It can be a well placed hip check right at or above the knee.  Those two 'legal' hist are two of the most dangerous in hockey.  All you're going to do is get more players hurt.

One way or another a big hit on a star is going to result in an act of retaliatory violence.  Despite the brutality of fighting, it actually results in far fewer major injuries than hitting does.  Major injuries usually happen when a player has there head down or is in a prone position, something which never happens in a fight.  I'd rather have players retaliating by squaring off with their fists than by violently blind-siding an opposing player, even though the latter is often legal.  

And that doesn't even broach the subject of stick swinging, which seems to have been on the rise as fighting has gone down.

[pfibiger]

Looks like McKee was released from his tryout with San Antonio and signed back up with the Augusta Lynx (ECHL). I guess we won't see the Cornell goalie cage match between LeNeveu and McKee in the AHL.

http://www.wrdw.com/sports/headlines/10402637.html

[The Rancor]

Moulson 4 games 6 points!::rock::
Iggulden 2 games 5 points!

[Josh '99]

[quote The Rancor]Moulson 4 games 6 points!::rock::
Iggulden 2 games 5 points![/quote]Murray 3 games 22 penalty minutes!  :-O

[calgARI '07]

Murray beat the crap out of Rypien tonight and it totally changed the complexion of the game in San Jose's favor.

[Josh '99]

[quote The Rancor]Moulson 4 games 6 points!::rock::
Iggulden 2 games 5 points![/quote]Also:  
Ryan O'Byrne has 3 assists in Hamilton's first 3 games of the season, but also 10 penalty minutes.  

Teammate Jon Gleed has 1 assist in those 3 games and has yet to take a penalty.

Mark McCutcheon has played 3 games for Lake Erie but has yet to register a point.

Dave LeNeveu has played one of San Antonio's three games thus far, giving up 34 goals on 38 shots in a 4-2 loss.  He's been outplayed (statistically, anyway) by Josh Tordjman, who's given up just two goals on 58 shots through two games played.