Dartmouth AD apology

Jim Hyla · November 27, 2006, 07:48:56 PM

[quote Dpperk29][quote jtwcornell91][quote Dpperk29]redhawks I thought?[/quote]

*whoosh*[/quote]

yup... I shouldn't post until I am fully awake[/quote]Next time, tell us when that is so we know when to read and reply.::faint::

KeithK · November 29, 2006, 12:55:17 PM

[quote Roy 82][quote KeithK]This statement makes me want to fly to Hanover and cheer for the Sioux and the Dartmouth Indians.[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, I know the NCAA is hypocritical blah blah blah but why do you want to get all kramer* on Native Americans?[/quote]Perhaps because I don't find the team nicknames "Fighting Sioux" and "Indians" to be offensive?

Jim Hyla · November 29, 2006, 05:06:58 PM

[quote KeithK][quote Roy 82][quote KeithK]This statement makes me want to fly to Hanover and cheer for the Sioux and the Dartmouth Indians.[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, I know the NCAA is hypocritical blah blah blah but why do you want to get all kramer* on Native Americans?[/quote]Perhaps because I don't find the team nicknames "Fighting Sioux" and "Indians" to be offensive?[/quote]But then again it really doesn't matter whether you find them offensive. I don't find them offensive either, but people don't call me by those names. What matters is whether the people to whom it's directed find them offensive. And that is where all the controversy begins.

KeithK · November 29, 2006, 05:37:47 PM

[quote Jim Hyla][quote KeithK][quote Roy 82][quote KeithK]This statement makes me want to fly to Hanover and cheer for the Sioux and the Dartmouth Indians.[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, I know the NCAA is hypocritical blah blah blah but why do you want to get all kramer* on Native Americans?[/quote]Perhaps because I don't find the team nicknames "Fighting Sioux" and "Indians" to be offensive?[/quote]But then again it really doesn't matter whether you find them offensive. I don't find them offensive either, but people don't call me by those names. What matters is whether the people to whom it's directed find them offensive. And that is where all the controversy begins.[/quote]I think folks who are offended by these names are over reacting. Sticks and stones and all that... I think people should stop being so thin skinned about names in general. Why take offense when none is intended? Anyway, I have as much right to express my opinion as "the people to whom it's directed". Thus my comment about rooting for the Sioux and Indians,

I'd ahppily root for the Redskins of Oxford as well, except they weren't invited to the Dartmouth tourney.

Jim Hyla · November 29, 2006, 11:11:17 PM

[quote KeithK][quote Jim Hyla][quote KeithK]Perhaps because I don't find the team nicknames "Fighting Sioux" and "Indians" to be offensive?[/quote]But then again it really doesn't matter whether you find them offensive. I don't find them offensive either, but people don't call me by those names. What matters is whether the people to whom it's directed find them offensive. And that is where all the controversy begins.[/quote]I think folks who are offended by these names are over reacting. Sticks and stones and all that... I think people should stop being so thin skinned about names in general. Why take offense when none is intended? Anyway, I have as much right to express my opinion as "the people to whom it's directed". Thus my comment about rooting for the Sioux and Indians, I'd ahppily root for the Redskins of Oxford as well, except they weren't invited to the Dartmouth tourney.[/quote]The only problem that I have with this line of thought is that it's hard to appreciate how someone else feels when you haven't experienced it yourself. The idea that "words can never hurt me", is of course not true. Words, or rather what those words mean, can hurt alot. Have you ever broken up with someone that you felt strongly about? Have you ever had someone tell you that someone you love has died? Yes these may be extreme, but extreme to get the point across. If someone feels offended by something I say, then I think I have to think I hurt them. That may be what was needed, as in the breakup, but to say I didn't do it because I didn't feel offended, is not really the point.

I guess my feeling is I won't disregard someone's perceived pain, until I have thoughtfully tried to understand it from their point of view. From a medical point of view I like to use the example of a patients pain. I have had people describe a patient's pain as "all in their head", meaning they are crazy. But of course all pain is in your head, it's my job to try and understand their pain and help them through it. It's not my job to deny that they feel that way.

DL · November 29, 2006, 11:40:30 PM

Ok, so I think Dartmouth should start calling their teams the Roundeyes.
Does that bother anybody here?

DeltaOne81 · November 30, 2006, 08:26:51 AM

[quote KeithK]I think folks who are offended by these names are over reacting. Sticks and stones and all that...[/quote]

Jim already addressed it in much ore detail, but you realize the "sticks and stones" saying is sarcastic, right? At least that's how I always understood it < thinks of that Reading Rainbow episode > . Words can and do hurt significantly.

You're entitled to think and respond however you want, but based on my understanding, you picked a pretty bad example, is all.

TimV · November 30, 2006, 09:01:53 AM

Not me.

I actually kinda like "Honky". "Cracker" I don't really understand. "Paleface" might be good.:-P

DL · November 30, 2006, 09:47:19 AM

[quote TimV]Not me.

I actually kinda like "Honky". "Cracker" I don't really understand. "Paleface" might be good.:-P[/quote]

I like Paleface. But where the heck does Honky come from, anyway?

RichH · November 30, 2006, 10:01:52 AM

[quote DL]But where the heck does Honky come from, anyway?[/quote]

Take this with the usual wikipedia grain-of-salt:

[Q]The word "honky" as a pejorative for caucasians comes from "bohunk" and "hunky". In the early 1900's, these were derogatory terms for Bohemian, Hungarian, and Polish immigrants. According to Robert Hendrickson, author of the Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, Black workers in Chicago meat-packing plants picked up the term from white workers and began applying it indiscriminately to all Caucasians.[/Q]

Although, I learned it from "The Jeffersons."

Robb · November 30, 2006, 10:16:09 AM

[quote DeltaOne81][quote KeithK]I think folks who are offended by these names are over reacting. Sticks and stones and all that...[/quote]

Jim already addressed it in much ore detail, but you realize the "sticks and stones" saying is sarcastic, right? At least that's how I always understood it < thinks of that Reading Rainbow episode > . Words can and do hurt significantly.

You're entitled to think and respond however you want, but based on my understanding, you picked a pretty bad example, is all.[/quote]

I have to agree with Keith on this one - words only hurt you as much as you allow them to. If someone's using racial slurs, they're obviously speaking from (at best) a myopic perspective. Ignore them, remind yourself that you're lucky to have been brought up to think for yourself, and move on.

Of course, if those words lead to "real" harm - discrimination in hiring, college admissions, housing, salary differences - then those are of course wrong (and illegal), should be brought to light, and remedied.

DeltaOne81 · November 30, 2006, 10:41:54 AM

[quote Robb] words only hurt you as much as you allow them to.[/quote]

I agree you should never allow words to hurt your self-esteem, make you think less of yourself, have any impact on your life or actions, etc. That is in your control. But the topic of this discussion wasn't about being 'hurt' (although I admit the saying was), it was about being offended.

You absolutely have the choice in how you *respond* to the words.

You can (and should) say, 'he/she/they is/are just (a) myopic, uninformed jerk(s)', but that doesn't mean the words still aren't offensive to you. It doesn't mean the saying of them doesn't bother you, offend you, or hurt your feelings.

Words can and do hurt. Which is why we need to learn to respond appropriately (i.e. not at all, or positively) to hurtful words, and be mindful of how we treat others. There would be no need to discredit the source if they didn't. I've always considered, and still consider, the saying to be sarcastic.

Anyway, I feel like I'm writing an episode of sesame street now, so that's quite enough from me

Beeeej · November 30, 2006, 11:44:36 AM

[quote Robb]I have to agree with Keith on this one - words only hurt you as much as you allow them to. If someone's using racial slurs, they're obviously speaking from (at best) a myopic perspective. Ignore them, remind yourself that you're lucky to have been brought up to think for yourself, and move on.[/quote]

That is a perfectly valid suggestion when someone on a street corner calls after you using what you perceive as a racial slur.

What if the racial slur is permanently institutionalized? Harder to ignore, no?

Beeeej · November 30, 2006, 11:46:02 AM

[quote TimV]I actually kinda like "Honky". "Cracker" I don't really understand. "Paleface" might be good.:-P[/quote]

http://www.littlefivers.com/college/ways-to-annoy-townies/

(See #1.)

Rosey · November 30, 2006, 12:09:40 PM

[quote Robb]I have to agree with Keith on this one - words only hurt you as much as you allow them to.[/quote]
Agreed. But I'd expand on this a bit to talk about consequences. The way I look at these sorts of problems is simple:

How you interpret my actions is not under my control. It may become my problem, in the sense that if I use words in a socially unacceptable way I may be shunned by some people whose validation I want or need; but if you are offended and it doesn't affect me negatively in any substantial way, then it's entirely your problem and you should figure out how to deal with it. In other words: tough. ::nut::

Cheers,
Kyle