Important message to ice hockey ticket holders

Monday's (1/26/09) All Things Considered on NPR has a story on the future leader of Andy Noel's family friendly cheering club.

"Pickle them, Pickle them, Go CU!"

Rita
Monday's (1/26/09) All Things Considered on NPR has a story on the future leader of Andy Noel's family friendly cheering club.

"Pickle them, Pickle them, Go CU!"

Get them admitted, the whole club.

Can we set a timer to bring back this thread in 2014 and see what McKay Hatch is up to then? Maybe he's due for a breakout season around. A bunch of my in-laws are born again and say "shoot" a lot. It's just like the spoken form of writing "sh*t." I think it's a greater skill to control your emotions than do approved word-substitutions.

My Cornell girlfriend did a nice sketch for her sorority in which she hummed some of the words to "Could Have Danced All Night." Actually sounds more risque. As I recall it:

I could have [hmmmmmm] all night!
I could have [hmmmmm] all night!
And still have begged for more.
I could have spread my [hmmmmm replacing wings]
And done a thousand things I've never done before.

Andy Noel might see the clip hey and say, "That's what happens when you let barbarians-in-training continue unchecked." And he might be right. The audio on that clip, beyond the cursing, sounded like the first swell of what could turn into a riot.

really, the most offensive part of the end of that game was the michigan fans chanting "fuck you state?" how about kampfer (coming back from a fractured skull and neck injury earlier this year) getting sucker-punched from behind like bertuzzi-moore and then slashed on the neck? while i'm 22 and from nj (i swear a ton), when i have kids i'd be a lot less afraid of them hearing fuck than watching a kid get killed or paralyzed on the ice. look how upset people were over davenport's injury at rpi, if a similar scene played out in lynah you'd have a reaction similar to the michigan fans. i've played a lot of hockey in my life, the worst things i've heard pale in comparison to the worst things i've seen.

as for swearing in general, i'd recommend everyone watch the swearing episode of penn and teller's aptly titled "bullshit"

George Carlin
I used to work at the Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas, but I got fired for saying "shit" in a town where the big game is called "craps." There's some kind-of double standard. They got rich Texans out in the casino goin' "Aw shit! I crapped!"


They fired me.

Shit.

billhoward
Can we set a timer to bring back this thread in 2014 and see what McKay Hatch is up to then? Maybe he's due for a breakout season around. A bunch of my in-laws are born again and say "shoot" a lot. It's just like the spoken form of writing "sh*t." I think it's a greater skill to control your emotions than do approved word-substitutions.

The Sci-Fi channel is having a promotion with the word "frak" in the name. Which is kind of shocking if you substitute the word it clearly stands for in the BSG universe.

Beeeej
When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength." The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!" Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either. I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.

pat

Beeeej
When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength." The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!" Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either. I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.

A handful of arenas still do it, or have restarted it. I'm pretty sure that RPI had the PA announcement and I want to believe North Dakota did as well, but you can't hear any noise in that place anyway. I can't remember if Union did or not because I try to purge my memory of anything related to that place every time I leave. CU fans lead themselves in that cheer, and I heard it clearly once over RedCast this past weekend.

RichH

pat

Beeeej
When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength." The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!" Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either. I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.

A handful of arenas still do it, or have restarted it. I'm pretty sure that RPI had the PA announcement and I want to believe North Dakota did as well, but you can't hear any noise in that place anyway. I can't remember if Union did or not because I try to purge my memory of anything related to that place every time I leave. CU fans lead themselves in that cheer, and I heard it clearly once over RedCast this past weekend.

Do you suppose Arthur would restart it if we promised to buy him a few drinks after the games?

Beeeej
Do you suppose Arthur would restart it if we promised to buy him a few drinks after the games?

Not a chance. I don't take bribes. (Although I'm always open to anyone who wants to buy me a beer ...)

I stopped making the announcement because Laing Kennedy asked me to (and when the Director of Athletics asks you, in my position, it's not really a request ...). I wasn't terribly unhappy to give it up, either: the announcement isn't required by any rule or protocol I'm familiar with, and it's one less thing I have to pay attention to (and thereby run the risk of missing something more interesting or important).

Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case. But you're still going to have to keep yourselves informed about manpower changes caused by players returning to play from the penalty box, because I'm not going to do it. These days, I see little enough of the game as is, so I'm not looking for more things to do.

they still do the announcement at denver games with the "and they still suck" from the fans

they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

ACM
Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case.

There's always the goalie slapping his stick on the ice, amplified by the faithful yelling "SHUT UP!!!!" if it's the opposing goalie doing it.

jtwcornell91

ACM
Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case.

There's always the goalie slapping his stick on the ice, amplified by the faithful yelling "SHUT UP!!!!" if it's the opposing goalie doing it.

I noticed that Ben was quite "slap-happy" at the ends of penalties last weekend - has he always done that? I'd never seen him in person (pretty sure), and didn't remember seeing it on the webcasts before.

bernie
they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.

I actually kind of like 'that's debatable'. But then again, I also like the idea of a pumpkin on top of the clocktower.

Josh '99

bernie
they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.

Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.

ugarte

Josh '99

bernie
they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.

Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.

I disagree, I think they're stupid and twee but that's probably what passes for humor in the Upper Midwest. The only other thing I can think of is the "M-I-N-N-... etc." thing that sounds like something a seven-year-old would come up with to prove he learned how to spell Minnesota.

bernie
they still do the announcement at denver games with the "and they still suck" from the fans

they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

Wisconsin uses the "that's debatable" also. I remember hearing it repeatedly at Green Bay and/or Milwaukee in '06 - not sure if the PA guys was making the announcement at both places. However, I don't recall hearing it from the Gopher fans at Mariucci in '05.

Josh '99

ugarte

Josh '99

bernie
they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago. given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on. "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.

Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.

I disagree, I think they're stupid and twee but that's probably what passes for humor in the Upper Midwest. The only other thing I can think of is the "M-I-N-N-... etc." thing that sounds like something a seven-year-old would come up with to prove he learned how to spell Minnesota.

So "they still suck" is lamentably lost but "that's debatable" is stupid and twee. Got it.

Robb
I noticed that Ben was quite "slap-happy" at the ends of penalties last weekend - has he always done that? I'd never seen him in person (pretty sure), and didn't remember seeing it on the webcasts before.

Pretty sure he's always done it. He's certainly done it most of this year. There was one game early in the season--so early it may have even been pre-season--where he failed to do it once and the opposing player came out of the penalty box, took a pass, and scored. Schafer appeared pretty annoyed at that, and Ben has been pounding the stick on the ice pretty regularly since then.

andyw2100
Ben has been pounding the stick on the ice pretty regularly since then.

...as the kids call it these days. (to get back to the spirit...the spirit of the thread!)

RichH
(to get back to the spirit...the spirit of the thread!)

OK. Did the boys and girls of Lynah pass the test last week or will Papa Andy be punishing the band them for the naughty words?

The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.

jdonofrio
The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.

I'm guessing it was an associate AD then, not an usher.

jdonofrio
The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.

When I saw 1 new post in this thread, I clicked thinking "I wonder what happened in Newman this weekend."

Of course, it shouldn't be necessary to curse during cheers.

Nahhh. Plain clothes. NSP - Newman Secret Police.

Just looked through the staff pictures on cornellbigred.com, the guy who threw someone out in Newman was Matt Coats, I didnt know who he was, but that is the guy you guys have been complaining about right?

He is a real jackass. If I was closer to the guy he threw out I would have warned the kid and then Coats probably would have thrown me out too.

I wonder if J. Andrew ever went to the N. Country, if his ears would bleed from some of the crap that comes out up there.

LAUREL: From Kevin Vallely. To Cornell University's athletic department. Last Saturday, my daughter and I attended our first Cornell women's basketball game against Columbia University. It was a great game and we had fun. After the game, Jeffery Hall approached us and offered up some Cornell hospitality. Unfortunately, we had to get home. While in the lobby preparing to leave, Andy Noel came over and introduced himself to us. Both Mr. Hall and Mr. Noel were kind enough to stay with my daughter as I went to our van. Their generosity was greatly appreciated. The Cornell community should be proud to have these two fine gentlemen on your team.

Tom Tone
I wonder if J. Andrew ever went to the N. Country, if his ears would bleed from some of the crap that comes out up there.

LAUREL: From Kevin Vallely. To Cornell University's athletic department. Last Saturday, my daughter and I attended our first Cornell women's basketball game against Columbia University. It was a great game and we had fun. After the game, Jeffery Hall approached us and offered up some Cornell hospitality. Unfortunately, we had to get home. While in the lobby preparing to leave, Andy Noel came over and introduced himself to us. Both Mr. Hall and Mr. Noel were kind enough to stay with my daughter as I went to our van. Their generosity was greatly appreciated. The Cornell community should be proud to have these two fine gentlemen on your team.

FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, behind Princeton and Harvard. We've won 50 of our 179 Ivy titles under him. For the past six years, we've been in either second or third place in terms of annual Ivy titles won. Yeah...fire Andy!! Andy, Matt and Gene are doing their jobs, and like ALL of us, they make mistakes. Walk in mile in their shoes, then talk. Until then, grow a third eye and try to see things from their view.

Much of the pressure to clean up Lynah probably comes from the CU Administration, like Skorton and Murphy. I doubt Skorton wants to hear it, nor does he want his invited guests to hear it. It's kind of like having your child mouth-off or swear in public. It doesn't feel good, and as a parent it's necessary to make the kid understand it's inappropriate.

Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. Everyone whines about their rights, except when they find something offensive, like racial slurs. It's admirable to consider our fellow citizens, and a good lesson to teach children.

End of rant....

Townie
FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters? Championships over everything else?? Awesome POV.

RichH

Townie
FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters? Championships over everything else?? Awesome POV.

Clearly unincumbered by the thought process.

Townie

RichH

Townie
FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters? Championships over everything else?? Awesome POV.

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators. I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.

Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton. I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

Tom Tone
Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton. I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

Tom, you miss the point! We've had winning teams! And besides, there are fewer students to monitor when they have to pay.

Tom Tone
Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton. I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

I'll mention again that Coach Schafer was a prime mover for this change. Somehow when we discuss this we all conveniently forget that point. Yes, it has been poorly implemented, but do any of us know who first started the discussion?

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

So, you'd rather have a smaller rink where some people can't get tickets for a game?We had a wonderful expansion, again with strong input from the hockey program. More seats, but still a Lynah atmosphere.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

I agree, I'm one of those. (family of 3)

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

Give me break. Everyone in the sports world (a bit of hyperbole, I agree) says this is a wonderful facility and a great addition to the program. It's a strong draw for recruits and you can hold matches there. If you want to accommodate larger crowds you move them to a larger on campus facility. How novel an idea. Have you ever heard of UConn playing home games in Hartford Civic Center? Maybe wrestling should move back to Teagle?

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

Alumni fields started to go many years before, the present administration just continued it. Do you honestly think if the school wanted more room for academic facilities, that athletics could or should stop it. If so move to another league where athletics rules the school; there are many of them out there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

That does sound stupid, I remember it, but not well enough to comment.

Look my opinion is that we are currently in a great time for Cornell athletics, both men's and women's. Now if we could just get a good football team.

I know that Coach Schafer was the originator of many of the changes regarding swearing, however, many times athletics has taken it too far especially in threatening the band with various sanctions. There was a time when 'sucks' was considered taboo.

I'd like people to get tickets but ticket prices increased along with with increased capacity. The standing room used to be a pretty decent way to watch a game and now, some of the sightlines at the tops of the student sections are terrible.

The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students. Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

As far as the student's paying:
[cornellsun.com]

No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.

Chris '03

Townie

RichH

Townie
FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters? Championships over everything else?? Awesome POV.

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators. I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.

Nice! Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics. Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth. This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

About the winning thing: just stating the facts. Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

About swearing: Dang! You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!! Come on Chris, cut the histrionics. I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens. But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless. Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective. If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone. The fact is they are effective, but not perfect. The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him. So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Townie
The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him. So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew. It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.

Tom Tone
Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton. I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

Jim Hyla did a good job of responding to many of these, but I'll respond to a couple.

The Friedman Wrestling Center is a major, MAJOR recruiting advantage for Rob Koll. The facility had a budget, so one must work within those confines. Andy was very cautious NOT to burden the university by exceeding that budget, unlike many of his predecessors! I'd also like to mention that it was Coach Noel who helped cultivate the Athletics relationship with Steve Friedman back in the 1970's as he rebuilt the wrestling program. And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes. Notice the Friedman Strength & Conditioning Center? Thanks Steve, thanks Andy!

Concessions: Agreed...the pricing is an embarassment! Unfortunately, Athletics benefits very little from those prices. Background: Previous vendors were difficult to work with. They only wanted to serve at certain money-making events. In order to keep a consistent vendor and have them work events that are barely profitable, they needed to increase prices. Having said that, I still agree that prices are too high.

The students paying for events was an administrative screw-up during a time of transition in the business office. The recent change that occured 4 (?) years ago reflected a shift in Undergrad Student Assembly priorities. The Grad SA did not cease funding. Hard to "blame" Andy for either of those.

Concerning the increase in ticket prices, understand that Athletics is under continual funding pressure. Very few "outsiders" truly know the funding model. The University funds only a portion of Athletics & Physical Education. It's up to Andy & Co. to figure out the rest...that's the truth. The (majority) remainder of funds comes from alumni gifts, endowment income and other revenue (tickets, sponsorships, etc.). Hockey tickets are an obvious method for funding any university shortfall. Despite the price increase, the Lynah experience is virtually unchanged, which surprises me. (I thought there'd be more empty seats.) It's unfortunate that prices are so high, and I don't like it either, but I understand Athletics has very few options if the program is to thrive. Frankly, I think they've done a good job given the constant financial pressure they endure. Understand that CU's contribution to Athletics is highly dependant upon the external economic environment, so when state funding or endowment income drops, so does the funding to the departments. Despite this variable funding stream, Athletics continues to provide a positive experience for the student-athlete, which is a core element of their mission.

Look, Andy & Co. are not perfect, but few truly understand the circumstances and only draw conclusions from the tip of the iceberg. This original post is a prime example. Blame Andy for "selling out" alumni fields? That was a trustee decision. Blame Andy for an inadequate wrestling center? Get a grip...that facility (with its own work-out facility, training room, etc) is like Heaven to recruits.

Obviously I have access to information that few here do. Based on my knowledge of the FACTS, many (not all) of the conclusions I read are drawn from opinion and conjecture, and are inaccurate and inherently unfair. Like it or not, he is one of most successful Cornell ADs. His administration has done an excellent job of stewarding the program, both Athletics and Physical Education. Been to a basketball game recently? Remember how vacant Newman Arena was in 2000? He hired (and retained!) both Steve Donahue and Dayna Smith. Here are a few more facts:

Last Men's Lax championship before Andy: 1987
Last Women's Lax " " " : Never
Last Men's Basketball championship before Andy: 1988
Last Women's Basketball " " " : Never

These don't happen by magic. Someone needs to work to make it happen. Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.

Tom Tone
No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.

Maybe so, but understand that each Ivy school has a different funding model, so comparisons between institutions is classic apples and oranges. Also, in some institutions, the student activity fee covers ticket revenue, fitness center memberships, etc. IIRC, the athletic program at Princeton is fully-funded by the institution, so they need not charge admission. Ticket revenue for Cornell is a necessary part of their funding. As funding pressure increased over the past five years, Athletics began charging to more events (e.g, football, women's lax, volleyball, women hockey, etc.). Given the option, I doubt Athletics would charge students for events, unless instructed by the university. I believe Cornell provides the lowest level of athletics funding of all the Ivies despite having the second (maybe third) largest program (number of teams).

Townie

Chris '03

Townie

RichH

Townie
FACT: Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters? Championships over everything else?? Awesome POV.

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators. I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.

Nice! Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics. Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth. This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

Good for you. Would you like a medal?

About the winning thing: just stating the facts. Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.

About swearing: Dang! You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!! Come on Chris, cut the histrionics. I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens. But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless. Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective. If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.

I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.

The fact is they are effective, but not perfect. The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him. So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.

Townie
These don't happen by magic. Someone needs to work to make it happen. Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.

While all these behind-the-scenes facts might be known by a select few, the image presented by the athletics department to the non-student athlete is poor.

The Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy. If J. Andrew were being such a good steward, maybe he should be pushing for more money to reduce these costs instead of building a Wrestling palace usable by .001% of the student population.

Townie
And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes.

So it's okay for the non-athletes who pay 145$ a year to workout in unappealing facilities?

The Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy.

Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.

Tom Tone

Townie
The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him. So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew. It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.

I, for one, am not going to donate a goddamn dime to Cornell. They bled my dry and didn't have any remorse in doing it. I had a sophomore year class that was REQUIRED to take... and it had a course fee attached to it. That just isn't right. Further more, I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them. Ever.

Flyers1037
I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them. Ever.

If your writing skills don't improve your charitible foundation will suffer.

Chris '03

Townie

Chris '03
Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators. I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.

Nice! Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics. Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth. This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

Good for you. Would you like a medal?

Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business." The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co.. Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?

Chris '03
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.

I don't think it's irrelevant. This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal. My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration. Fair and balanced. Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Townie
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless. Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective. If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.

Chris ‘03
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.

I’m referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.

Chris ‘03
Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.

I agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he’d be out. Period. If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they’d move on and he’d be out. He’s been here since 1999. CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic. Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right. Overall, he’s doing a very good job in a very difficult environment. Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

Tom Tone
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students. Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

Two words Tom: Gender Equity. The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative. Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit. Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams. Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program. As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans. This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

Townie
many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams. Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program ... Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans. This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

Athletics trying to cut a sport that went on to do well is an example of their success?

Townie]

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology". It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

Townie

Tom Tone
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students. Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

Two words Tom: Gender Equity. The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative. Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit. Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams. Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program. As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans. This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

And Fencing. While not quite as dramatic of a turnaround, the re-instated Women's Fencing Team is doing much better than the version when we were co-ed. The Cornell women beat another Ivy in 2006 for the first time in 14 years (yikes) and sent 5 fencers to the NCAAs last year. The coach is a World Champion and Olympic medalist - a major upgrade to the support for fencing since the mid 90s. Now about that men's team.... Grrrrr....

mnagowski
Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal.

Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.

Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to “Class of ‘71” hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
[www.upenn.edu]

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

Townie

Tom Tone
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students. Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

Two words Tom: Gender Equity. The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative. Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit. Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams. Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program. As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans. This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

What? Building a facility for a women's sport near other athletic facilities is a violation of Title IX now? Surely you jest.

Townie
Nice! Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics. Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth. This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

Chris
Good for you. Would you like a medal?

Townie
Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business." The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co.. Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?

Matching assumptions with assumption, eh? Good form! Of course you have the benefit of knowing exactly who I am but all I know about you is that you go to hockey games. Presuming you have dealt with these folks (or for all I know you are one of these folks) I'll concede your assertion as fact and amend my above conditional statement to say that [one who apologizes for this administration] either never actually interacted with these people or you has a really low bar for professionalism.

Chris
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.

Townie
I don't think it's irrelevant. This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal. My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration. Fair and balanced. Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.

You miss the point entirely. I think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates. If I have to chose between winning more in that environment and winning less in another environment, I'll take winning less. There are many components to success as an AD. Winning is one but not the only one. If he was a saint but lost all the time, he'd be out. If he's a horrible person but wins, he should be out too.

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

Townie
The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

You've missed my point. And besides, by all accounts there's zero tolerance for apologies on the other side of the rink.

Townie
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless. Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective. If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.

Chris ‘03
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.

Townie
I’m referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.

I'm referring to the baseless accusations made against me personally, friends of mine, and the band when I represented it.

Chris ‘03
Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.

I agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he’d be out. Period. If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they’d move on and he’d be out. He’s been here since 1999. CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic. Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right. Overall, he’s doing a very good job in a very difficult environment. Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

Very good at schmoozing and influencing donors. Good for him. Sign him up for the development office. I'm glad coaches seem comfortable enough to stay. Several of them have told me they detest the way the department treats students. But from the coach's perspective, it is all about winning. That's all he is measured against. The AD should be measured against more than won loss record. But that may be be my fragile idealist viewpoint speaking or the selfish idea that I shouldn't be treated like a nuisance to be eliminated and I should deal with the crap that comes with winning.

TimV

Flyers1037
I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them. Ever.

If your writing skills don't improve your charitable foundation will suffer.

I might have been a little bit inebriated when writing that... and to return the favor, FYP.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Your experience may be different to mine, but I seem to remember absolutely no trouble swimming in Helen Newman, playing basketball on West, or running the indoor track during the allotted time periods. That would strike me as the definition of 'available'. I also seem to remember nobody stopping me and asking me to pay money when I went cross-country skiing and snowshoeing in the Plantations or when I would take a mid-February jog around Cayuga Heights.

And frankly, I was happy that I didn't have to pay money to subsidize the use of elliptical machines.

Now, would it be nice if Cornell had an Olympic size pool and another indoor track facility? Hell yes. In fact, I'm pretty certain both Athletics and Development have been trying to aggressively fundraise for an expansion to Helen Newman hall for the last decade. Just because a new natatorium hasn't been built, while a new wrestling center has, doesn't mean that Athletics doesn't have the interest in the non-scholar athlete at heart. Friedman wanted a wrestling center, and so he gave money for a Wrestling center. It's not a zero sum game. At the end of the day, if you don't like what's available, why not join a fundraising committee to improve the quality of athletic offerings on campus?

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes..

Yes. Penn basketball is the only thing that approaches Cornell hockey in terms of student demand, aside from the Harvard-Yale game. But as I mentioned, even the Palestra is half empty for most games during the Ivy season. So to a certain extent, ticket prices will naturally reflect demand.

Should Athletics be offering a better environment to students at Lynah? Of course. Would it be great if Cornell had better gyms and pools? Of course. But the suggestion that athletic involvement at Cornell will be $2500 more expensive than at any other Ivy is completely baseless.

Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things.

But thanks for proving my point. And I take my statement back. You obviously did know what you were talking about, but you chose to omit the relevant and pertinent information that would have discredited your argument.

Got me.

I think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates.

Without commenting on the larger issues at hand, I have to agree with Chris on this one. I've seen Athletics staff literally get up in individual fans' faces to shout at them for their behavior. Right or wrong, they only belittle themselves by doing this. It's not quite of the same magnitude as the Armand Hill incident at Newman about 7 years ago, but it's close (and how that guy didn't get fired immediately for that is beyond me... Imus got fired for about the similar comments, although they were racist, not homophobic).

What was this Armand Hill incident? I can't find anything in the archives.

Sorry for the long links, had to look for cached versions.
[209.85.173.132]


[www.gaysports.com]


Occurred before elf and wasn't hockey related.

Thread drift complete?

BCrespi
What was this Armand Hill incident? I can't find anything in the archives.

[www.columbiaspectator.com]

Thanks guys. I promise, my Google's not broken, I just looked up Armand, not Armond, as the earlier post stated, and it was certainly not a searched enough query to help me out, in that regard.

Jordan 04

Townie]

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology". It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

Jordan: The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies. When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me. That's how civilized people behave.

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf? Because he's older? That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me. Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30. Doesn't play very well, does it?

Tom Tone
Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away. Seems silly, but that's the mentality. I believe softball started out there, didn't they?

Townie

Jordan 04

Townie]

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology". It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

Jordan: The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies. When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me. That's how civilized people behave.

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf? Because he's older? That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me. Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30. Doesn't play very well, does it?

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.

Townie

Tom Tone
Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away. Seems silly, but that's the mentality. I believe softball started out there, didn't they?

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.

For the sake of completeness:
From:[www.rso.cornell.edu] (no guarantee the links below still work)

From the Armond Hill Debacle:

Thursday, January 31, 2002
Ugly stuff from the Ivy League
The coach and the pep band

Some try to paint Ivy League athletics as pure and proper, a model of decorum and/or the last great hope of Western civilization.
In reality, it's often gritty and subject to the hyper-competitiveness that can warp sports at any level.
A recent basketball game between Cornell and Columbia won't be remembered for anything noble, but an unfortunate exchange between Columbia's coach, Armond Hill, and a member of Cornell's Pep Band, Chad Potocky. What has further tainted the incident in recent days is the spin out of New York City.
At the game in question, members of the band were giving Hill a hard time for arguing with game officials, telling him to sit down and that he was a "dumb coach." Near the end of the first half, Hill -- in the middle of another harangue at the refs that drew jeers from the band -- left the coaching box and challenged Potocky, with, "What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face."
When Potocky declined to get into it with the coach, Hill said, "That's what I thought, ------," using a word derogatory to homosexuals.
After the game, Hill apologized and said he shouldn't have approached the band, which sits on five-row bleachers behind one of the baskets. Potocky told The Journal that Cornell police asked if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill, but he declined.
It would have been appropriate if Columbia had been a little tougher with Hill, other than saying he apologized, case closed. There are a lot of words somebody can use in anger that aren't as offensive. But Columbia officials not only declined to publicly criticize Hill, but took off after Cornell and where the band sits.
"I think the location of the (Cornell) band is unconscionable and frankly is something that we would never do here at Columbia," said the university's Athletic Director John Reeves in an interview with the Columbia Daily Spectator. "When people come to our place, we want to provide a hospitable environment where they are our guests. We don't do it through confrontation and we never will, we'd rather lose."
A wise guy might add, "Which is something you're quite good at." What's more obvious is Reeves' shallow attempt to take the heat off his Hill and lay it on East Hill.
Unconscionable? We're talking about where a pep band sits, not Enron's management policies. Unfortunately, Columbia analyzed this incident through Lion eyes, instead of making a point about wretched behavior that didn't speak well for the Ivy League.
[www.theithacajournal.com]


Columbia Coach Issues Apology for Using Slur
Newsday; Long Island, N.Y.; Jan 31, 2002; Arthur V. Claps. STAFF WRITER;


Full Text:
(Copyright Newsday Inc., 2002)
Columbia men's basketball coach Armond Hill issued a public apology yesterday following an incident in which he shouted a slur at a Cornell pep band member during Saturday's game at Cornell.
"My response to the band was wrong, and I admit that," Hill said in a statement released by the university. "Being in the heat of competition does not justify my actions. I apologized to the member of the band after the game, and we walked away with no hard feelings."
Hill wasn't available for further comment.
Columbia athletic director John Reeves, who said a copy of Hill's statement was sent to Cornell, said he would not disclose whether the university took disciplinary action against Hill.
"I have accepted his apology," said Reeves, who learned of the incident Saturday when he received an e-mail from a member of the Cornell marching band. The incident was first reported Sunday by Columbia's student newspaper, the Spectator. Reeves met with Hill on Monday and yesterday. "Personnel remedies have been taken of which I don't have the liberty to disclose and Armond will be on the sideline this weekend...I am sure this behavior will not reoccur."
Apparently, the sixth-year coach was angry with the band members' comments during Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell.
According to band member Chad Potocky, Hill erupted when the band got on the coach for arguing a foul call just before the half. Potocky said that Hill approached him and asked him to repeat the comments to his face. Potocky didn't respond and Hill said, "That's what I thought," adding an expletive.
"I was really surprised," Potocky said. "I didn't think we were saying anything that derogatory. We can't say anything bad. The worst thing we said the whole night was 'dumb coach.' But you don't think a coach would actually respond to that. It was completely unprofessional.
"Personally, I wasn't really offended by it. But other members of the band were. There were at least [40] witnesses. There were even kids there. Some don't want this to end so easily. They want him to get reprimanded, which he hasn't."

Published on January 31, 2002
Hill Apologizes For Behavior

The Columbia Daily Spectator received the following letter from Men's Basketball Head Coach Armond Hill Wednesday afternoon. Coach Hill's letter is in response to an incident at last Saturday's game between Cornell and Columbia in Ithaca, N.Y, during which Hill responded to jeering from members of the Cornell pep band by approaching the group and exchanging words with a member of the group. During the exchange, Hill referred to the individual as a "faggot."
Athletic Director John Reeves responded to the incident Monday by saying that Hill had apologized to the members of the band and acknowledged that his behavior was inappropriate. As such, Reeves said he considers the subject resolved.
January 30, 2002
To the Communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities,
I sincerely apologize for the inappropriate and offensive dialogue that came from me during an interaction between myself and members of the Cornell band last Saturday evening.
My choice of words was thoughtless and offensive.
This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis.
I hope you accept my apology, along with a promise that this will never happen again.
Respectfully,
Armond Hill
Men's Basketball Coach
Columbia University
[www.columbiaspectator.com]

Monday, January 28, 2002
Columbia coach loses his cool
By CHRISTOPHER FEAVER
Journal Staff

Columbia seventh-year head men's basketball coach Armond Hill allegedly called a member of the Cornell Pep Band a word derogatory to homosexuals during Saturday's game between the Lions and Cornell at Newman Arena.
The incident took place with four seconds remaining in the first half, with the score tied 23-23 and as Cornell player Jacques Vigneault was getting ready to shoot three foul shots after being fouled.
Hill, who had been on his feet shouting at officials for much of the first half, walked off the Columbia bench and went behind the baseline near the basket where Vigneault was about to shoot and verbally confronted members of the Cornell Pep Band.
In response to something said by senior pep band member Chad Potocky, Hill said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----," according to Potocky and several members of the pep band.
"I was yelling at him because I disagreed with him on the (Vigneault) call," said Potocky, who was sitting in the top row of the five-row bleachers behind the basket. "I was telling him to sit down. Then I said he was a dumb coach. Then he came over and said 'What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face.'"
"I said, 'Look, go sit down.' That's when he said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----.'"
When asked after the game about what happened near the end of the first half, Hill said he did not want to comment, but added, "I made a mistake and I shouldn't have gone over there. But I will write the guy and apologize to him."
The pep band had been verbally riding Hill through much of the first half, saying "mostly sit down and shut up," according to Cornell Pep Band Manager Chris Parkin.
"He was all over the referees in the first half and we were basically all over him in response to get him off the referees," Parkin said. "We told him to sit down and shut up, basically sticking to those few words. We did not use any derogatory language."
Saturday's Columbia game was the first attended by a full contingent of the pep band this season. The band normally plays for Big Red hockey games in the winter, but was at the basketball game due to a men's/women's doubleheader and Employee Night, which drew 2,106 fans to Newman, by far the largest crowd of the season.
After the incident, Potocky said Cornell police wanted to know if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill. But he refused.
Both Hill and the pep band were relatively quiet in the second half, which Columbia dominated on the way to a 54-42 win.
[ithacajournal.com]

Jeering Cornell Pep Band Provokes Hill Outburst
Hill said he would apologize to a member of the Cornell Big Red Pep Band after verbal altercation.
By Josh Fay-Hurvitz
Spectator Senior Staff Writer
/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1
Columbia Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill

Near the end of the first half of Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell on Saturday, Head Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill engaged in a heated exchange with members of the Cornell University Big Red Pep Band.
In the course of the exchange, band manager Chris Parkin, Cornell '03, alleges that Hill directed his comments at one member of the band and called him a "faggot."
The incident is also reported in today's issue of the Cornell Daily Sun. The Spectator has learned that the band member in question was Chad Potocky, Cornell '02, who confirmed the event had taken place.
Following a play in which junior forward Marco McCottry was called for a foul, Hill left the Columbia bench and approached the band, seated in the stands on the baseline adjacent to the Lions' bench. Hill, who had been complaining to the refereeing crew about that and other calls, apparently took offense to some of the comments made by band members and left the coaching box in the final seconds of the half to confront the group. Hill and Potocky then exchanged words. As the half expired, Hill left the court.
According to Parkin, he band was chanting at Hill to "sit down" and "shut up." Parkin and Potocky allege that Hill challenged Potocky, the loudest member of the band at the time, to repeat his comments to Hill's face.
When Potocky refused, the two claim that Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."
"It's fairly standard," Parkin said of the band's jeering. "When a coach gets into it with a ref, we get into it with him."
After the game, when asked about the altercation in general, Hill told the Spectator his version of the event.
"Right before halftime there was one gentleman that was singling me out, yelling at me, and calling me names that I didn't think were fair, and so I went over to him, and I said, ëWhy don't you come down to me and say it to me?' and he didn't, and I said, ëJust what I thought.' And, you know, I probably cursed at him, and that's what got everyone all riled up.... I should not have went over there, but if I see the kid, I will apologize." Hill could not be reached for comment about the specific incident late Sunday night.
Once the half had ended, Assistant Coach Walter Townes and the referees met at the scorer's table, where Townes pointed Potocky out to the three-man crew. Additionally, Parkin discussed the incident with the referees, officials from the Cornell athletic department, and several officers from Cornell police during halftime, but no official complaints were lodged against Hill.
Potocky claims that he was asked by Cornell police if he wanted to press charges against Hill for violating Cornell's code of conduct but declined. Spectator could neither confirm the violation nor the offer.
The second half of the game began as scheduled, and the game was completed without incident.
When approached by Parkin after the game and asked to apologize to the student in question, Hill agreed to do so and took the student's contact information. Hill also verbally apologized to Parkin, and the two men shook hands.
[www.columbiaspectator.com]

Hill Apologizes for Offensive Words
Columbia head basketball coach sends letter of apology to communities

By AMANDA ANGEL

Armond Hill, Columbia University's head men's basketball coach, officially apologized to the Cornell and Columbia communities after making offensive remarks to a Cornell pep band member. During the Cornell men's basketball game last Saturday at Newman Arena, Hill called senior trombonist Chad Potocky "a faggot," in response to heckling from the band member.

In a letter addressed to the communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities, Hill admited his mistakes, calling his remarks "inappropriate," "thoughtless," and "offensive."

"This kind of behavior is unacceptable," he continued, "and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis."

The verbal altercation occured after Cornell junior Jacques Vigneault was fouled while shooting a 3-pointer. Hill argued the call with the officials as the pep band continued its usual heckling.

Hill alleged that he heard derogatory cheers from members of the band and confronted Potocky, asking him to repeat his remarks. When Potocky refused, Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."

Potocky has declined to take any legal action. Cornell does not seem to be pursuing the situation further, although it is expected to be a topic of discussion at the Ivy League conference which began Tuesday. Cornell Athletic Director Andy Noel has yet to issue an official statement .

This apology comes two days after Hill presented a written apology to the Columbia and Cornell Athletic Departments. According to The Columbia Spectator, Athletic Director John Reeves has accepted Hill's statement and declared the issue closed.

[cornelldailysun.com]


MONDAY, JANUARY 28, 2002

M. Hoops Falls To Columbia

By SUMEET SARIN

In an example of a strange trend that has been gaining national attention, Columbia's head coach Armond Hill was caught in an altercation with a member of the Cornell pep band at the end of the first half. According to junior manager Chris Parkin, coach Hill called pep band member Chad Potocky a "faggot" in response to the heckling Hill had been receiving for arguing with the referees.

According to Parkin, "[Hill] came over to [Potocky] who was sort of on his own at that point saying, 'Sit down -- whatever'‚ so the coach comes over and says, 'Excuse me, what did you say? You want to say it to my face?' and [Potocky] basically says, 'Go sit down, calm down, coach the game.' and [Hill] says, 'Yeah, that's what I thought, faggot' and that is personally offensive to myself, the person it was addressed to, the four little kids sitting directly to my left, and the 20 fifth graders sitting behind the Columbia bench."

After the game, coach Hill did not comment on the incident, but admitted his fault, "I made a mistake and I'll write him an apology."

Coach's derogatory words prompt response

To the Editor:

I believe that Columbia University's head coach Armond Hill owes a public apology to the Cornell community as well as to pep band member Chad Potocky '02. As a Cornell student present at the game, I took personal offense to Hill's specific use of the word "faggot" at the game (Sports, M. Hoops Falls to Columbia, Jan. 28, 2002). Whether or not the coach intentionally chose that word, he should remember that his actions represent Columbia.

As a person who has ties to both University communities, I am disappointed that such a highly esteemed member of Columbia could be so thoughtless. Even if Hill's remark was truly only an unintentional outburst, it reveals the potential of more deeply held convictions on his part. His comments were also clearly audible to several children under the age of 12, who may not be able to tell the difference between an alleged unintentional outburst and an actual insult.

The Cornell community has worked hard to create a welcoming atmosphere at sporting events for everybody. Hill owes all of us who take pride in this atmosphere an apology.
-- Rachel Diana Goldstein '03

Tom Tone

mnagowski
Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal.

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey. Check it out:
[www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Some downplay the importance of an Ivy, but not the athletes or coaches who bust their butts to compete. It certainly doesn't have the prestige of an ECAC or national title, but it is a relevant measure of success as it presents a level playing among the schools.

Tom Tone
Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.

Look, you can't have everything. The PE offerings were expanded in response to student demand. Department budget constraints required imposition of fees for certain courses. I highly recommend the pistol class. Make sure you get in Al Gantert's section!

Tom Tone
Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to “Class of ‘71” hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
[www.upenn.edu]

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?

Tom: Believe me when I say Andy has enough trouble figuring out how to provide University mandated (yet under-funded) pay increases, let alone other give-aways. Your jaw would drop if you knew how much (or little!) support Athletics gets from Day Hall. It's not that Day Hall doesn't support Athletics (in fact they do), but they don't have the money either.

Townie

Jordan 04

Townie]

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology". It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

Jordan: The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies. When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me. That's how civilized people behave.

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf? Because he's older? That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me. Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30. Doesn't play very well, does it?

And as a student I heard very little swearing from students around me. But, as Chris said a couple of posts later, there are no Get Out of Jail Free apologies on our side. Unfair, unequal treatment.

I'm being discriminatory? I said nothing about anyone being older and thus being deaf. Seems as though you are the one being prejudicial in coming to such conclusions. I know many to be half-deaf based on my own eyewitness accounts as well all the additional stories that emerge of students being kicked out for not cursing at all, but for saying such dirty little words as "rough," because hey, among 3,000 other screaming fans, it sounded like "fuck" to an usher!

So all of these occurrences would make them either: a) deaf, b) liars, or c) pawns of the AD, charged with making indiscriminate ejections of students based on what they think they might have heard. I'll be overwhelmingly generous and give them the benefit of the doubt that it's (a).

Wow. Thanks. Consider me caught up.

Townie

Tom Tone
(even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey. Check it out:
[www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

Chris '03

Townie

Jordan 04

Townie]

Chris ‘03
Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology. My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology". It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

Jordan: The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies. When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me. That's how civilized people behave.

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf? Because he's older? That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me. Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30. Doesn't play very well, does it?

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.

Chris: any swearing that may occur in townie-land is not part of a standard cheer screamed by hundreds of people who are within ear-shot of Section C Brass and the radio microphone. I think this issue is about school image and respect for others, including those who make the rules (Athletics).

There's a simple solution: Respect the wishes of those who make the rules and don't swear (not referring to you specifically), even if you don't like the rulemakers or disagree with the rule. I'm not suggesting people blindly follow what they are told; this isn't Nazi Germany. But if students showed "maturity" by respecting the reasonable request of those in-charge, I suspect those in-charge would be more understanding of the occasional F-bomb. Instead, some students are calling Athletics' bluff, and since they have the power, Athletics is forced to enforce their policy. Sadly, there is "collateral damage". But in my view, the students are bringing this upon themselves.

Again, I'm not making excuses for Andy & Co., and I'm sure much of what you say is true. But I believe if you taunt the dog, don't complain when it bites.

Chris '03

Townie

Tom Tone
Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away. Seems silly, but that's the mentality. I believe softball started out there, didn't they?

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.

Off topic: To be sure, the Wrestling Facility does not help with the Title IX compliance, which highlights the flaws in the measurement process. With respect to this, I believe two women, who were disturbed by males losing opportunities in the name of Title IX, began a petition to modify the compliance measurement.

CowbellGuy

Townie

Tom Tone
(even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey. Check it out:
[www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title: [www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete. It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation. So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it!

Townie

CowbellGuy

Townie

Tom Tone
(even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey. Check it out:
[www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title: [www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete. It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation. So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it!

Read it all again. Slowly.

Chris '03
Read it all again. Slowly.

I've read it - both quickly and slowly - and I'll be damned if I know what point Tom Tone was trying to make by noting that money is put into sports that don't have 8 Ivy League competitors. Hockey, lax and wrestling are sports that generate actual attendance and in which the school is nationally competitive. What difference does it make if Yale chooses not to field a wrestling team?

Chris '03

Townie

CowbellGuy

Townie

Tom Tone
(even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey. Check it out:
[www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title: [www.ivyleaguesports.com]

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete. It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation. So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it!

Read it all again. Slowly.

Thanks, Chris. My mistake.

This Armond Hill thing brings up an interesting point. Hill used a word that some found offensive. Not everybody is offended by that word (e.g., Potocky), yet some students, at whom the word was not even directed, took offense to it. The use of that word in public has been greatly curtailed, I'm guessing out of respect for those offended. I don't know if that word is illegal, but societal mores have marked this word as inappropriate.

On the other hand, we have a group of students who use a word that is offensive to some (many?) as part of a standard cheer in a similar venue. Yet when asked to stop using it, some students persist. I understand that much of this thread involves the way in which Athletics enforces their policy, but do I detect a double-standard here? I also recognize that "faggot" is a slur often directed at an individual, whereas "fuck" is a verb (in this case). But the point is about respect for others who find a word offensive while the person/group using it clearly does not, at least not during the cheer.

Those who use the word during the cheer might be much less inclined to use it when talking to their parents, or their girlfriend's parents, or their boss, or whomever. If so, they understand that it is not always appropriate to use this word. By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?

Townie
"By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?"

I'm offended by the word 'god'. I'm not inclined to use it around my parents or my boss. How many other people do I need to be offended by the word 'god' do I need in order to get people ejected for singing O' Canada?


Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate? Even if fuck were inappropriate, where do they get the idea that they can regulate words with similar sounds? Why should I be guilted into apologizing just because your kid heard a word in the English language? It's not my job to be their parent nor would I want my tuition money and ticket fees to go to pay people who set and enforce arbitrary standards.

The point is that Townie suggest that the AD's performance can be measured by the number of aggregate titles we have won. I imagine that it would be easier to win an Ivy title in a sport where only 6 or 7 of the 8 compete and thus not a good measure of how successful an AD.

Tom Tone
Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate?

You can't be serious.

Athletics is responsible for the environment at their events. If the crazy students lead to an exodus of townies (or even merely vigorous complaining from them OR FROM THE COACH) they have every right to police that environment.

Say it with me: THIS ISN'T A FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUE. You are on private property at the leisure of your hosts. Athletics sets the rules for what is allowed in their rink. The words being policed aren't borderline ('sucks' might be, but from what I can tell, 'sucks' isn't getting people tossed). 'Puck' is an interesting hypothetical but ... has anyone actually been ejected for saying 'puck'? I didn't think so. (NB: If someone chants "the ref pucks sheep" and complains when they are tossed, they should also be punched in the eye.)

Tom Tone
The point is that Townie suggest that the AD's performance can be measured by the number of aggregate titles we have won. I imagine that it would be easier to win an Ivy title in a sport where only 6 or 7 of the 8 compete and thus not a good measure of how successful an AD.

I also do not believe that you are serious about this, as Columbia never competes for titles in anything.

ugarte

Tom Tone
Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate?

You can't be serious.

Or even grammatically well-formed

OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.

jtwcornell91
OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.

On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".

ugarte
If the crazy students lead to an exodus of townies (or even merely vigorous complaining from them OR FROM THE COACH) they have every right to police that environment.

If Pixel starts serving Hennepin on Tuesdays, Athletics has every right to police Lynah Rink.

For what I estimate is only the second time in a millennium, we agree on something: this is not a first amendment issue, and students' rights are (generally) not being violated, though I would argue that anyone who gets kicked out and has his tickets revoked is due a full refund for the unused portion.

However, that doesn't make it a good policy. I think it's fucking dildonic to throw students out for shouting profanity at a hockey rink, and furthermore hypocritical if one of the most vocal complainants is also one of the most vocal offenders.

Welcome your kids to the real world by not sheltering them from one of the few places where it is both appropriate and acceptable to scream your lungs bloody with filthy language. Where else, if not at a sporting event, can and should you express that kind of vitriol in public? It's cathartic, it's amusing, and it's a lot of fun. Those who take offense at 2,000 people chanting, "The ref fucks sheep!" really need to pull the sticks out of their asses, lighten up, and recognize the fun possible when engaging in mob mentality where it can't actually hurt anyone.

Kyle Rose
For what I estimate is only the second time in a millennium, we agree on something

Goddamit. And I was pretty sure that I was right about this.

ugarte

jtwcornell91
OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.

On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".

Let's not get carried away. The Columbia AD basically blamed the whole thing on Cornell. And reaction on campus in Ithaca was that the band was in the wrong much more so than the coach.

Bullshit! (Said in such a way as to sound like a sneeze to avoid ejection)

Chris '03

ugarte

jtwcornell91
OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.

On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".

Let's not get carried away. The Columbia AD basically blamed the whole thing on Cornell. And reaction on campus in Ithaca was that the band was in the wrong much more so than the coach.

Seriously. Columbia's reaction was ridiculous, but more importantly, my point was that behavior such as this has gotten people fired in public ways. Athletics' staff has occassionally engaged in less severe, but I do not believe entirely different ways.

Townie
There's a simple solution: Respect the wishes of those who make the rules and don't swear (not referring to you specifically), even if you don't like the rulemakers or disagree with the rule. I'm not suggesting people blindly follow what they are told; this isn't Nazi Germany. But if students showed "maturity" by respecting the reasonable request of those in-charge, I suspect those in-charge would be more understanding of the occasional F-bomb. Instead, some students are calling Athletics' bluff, and since they have the power, Athletics is forced to enforce their policy. Sadly, there is "collateral damage". But in my view, the students are bringing this upon themselves.

Again, I'm not making excuses for Andy & Co., and I'm sure much of what you say is true. But I believe if you taunt the dog, don't complain when it bites.

Yeah, I think the general consensus on this forum is exactly what you and others suggest: This isn't a first amendment issue. Put a cap on the salty language. We get that here. I think the bigger issue of this argument is the double standard that has been established. Specifically, the marching orders of the ushering staff that "them students are up to no good, and if you don't find the rotten kids who are doing it, you aren't doing your job. Bring someone to us, and we'll believe you because we need to make examples of somebody." It's pretty much a quota system. It encourages an environment of distrust. It encourages ushers to walk down aisles and stare at individuals, and hear something that may or may not be there. I guarantee that if someone is told what the ushers are told, that "it's going on and you better find it," they will look for something and they can convince themselves of finding it. There's a reason students are hauled out of sections despite maintaining strenuously that they said "rough" and not "fuck." Sure there are students still swearing. But the method of going about cleaning it up is a very poor one.

I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior. They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring. As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.

Wow. What a combination. Two of my favorite things, Cornell hockey and...

(sigh) Born too soon....

JDeafv
I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior. They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring. As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.

Townies, on the other hand, are still allowed a quick blow job as long as they apologize afterwards!

Jordan 04
Townies, on the other hand, are still allowed a quick blow job as long as they apologize afterwards!

Win.

JDeafv
I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior. They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring. As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.

That guard in N has some sharp eyes.

Hopefully, the other students in Section B responded with the appropriate cheer.

Looks like this thread's gonna continue a while...

My wife is in serious trouble with me. We sit in Sec. N and she seldom misses any of the happenings on the other side of the ice. I get to watch hockey, knowing that she will make me aware if there is some "happening" in the student secions. She missed this one!!

JDeafv
Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.

Once again, this could very well be an example of the "those dang kids are up to no good" policy that exists and always siding against the students in a conflict of accounts. Yes, the possiblilty of this being true is eyebrow-raising, but if you stop and THINK about it, doesn't anyone even question the validity of this witnesses account? Surely if it was visible FROM ACROSS THE BUILDING, someone else must have seen it? I know if something like that happened near me in a section as crowded as B, there'd be a little bit of a ruckus.

SHHHHH! It's a good story - don't ruin it.

Trotsky

JDeafv
I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior. They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring. As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.

That guard in N has some sharp eyes.

Hopefully, the other students in Section B responded with the appropriate cheer.

Hey, babe - you're not a Faithful, you're a vacuum!

Um...