The Lynah and E-Lynah Gestapo

[Beeeej]

Okay, first of all, I actually agree with some of the points expressed here.  I don't think chants should be frozen in time as "perfect" and never evolve.  And taking away a ten year-old girls's sign because it uses a specific player's name is pretty shitty.  But some of what you said - and what's been said in response - strikes me as a bit bizarre.  So let me see if I can sum it up:

1) Clamping down on your profanity in an arena to which you've been admitted because you freely bought a ticket that serves as a legal contract, with your obligation not to use profanity written clearly on the back, is an infringement of your free speech rights, and

2) Alumni with an opinion on what you say in the rink have no right to express that opinion.

Beeeej

[Rosey]

[Q]Beeeej Wrote:

1) Clamping down on your profanity in an arena to which you've been admitted because you freely bought a ticket that serves as a legal contract, with your obligation not to use profanity written clearly on the back, is an infringement of your free speech rights[/Q]

This is not what I believe, and I don't think most of us seriously think that.  My opinion is, "Extreme fanaticism---of which strong language is de facto a part---is a large part of the reason why Lynah Rink is so feared, and therefore should be tolerated."

Look, it's a hockey game, not a Beethoven recital: if you don't want your kids to hear that kind of language, take them elsewhere.  IMO, this goes for Mike Schafer, as well.  The devestating atmosphere of Lynah should not be sacrificed because some people want to bring their kids to the rink and not have them hear language they don't like.  I'm sure lots of you disagree with me on this point, but I feel strongly that a college game should be primarily for the college student fans, not the locals and their kids, and the atmosphere should reflect that.

We're (yeah, I'm including my ancient non-college ass) old enough to handle a little profanity, and frankly, the fact that the college sports atmosphere inspires such frighteningly-insipid behavior is a prime reason why I prefer to follow Cornell hockey over professional teams that play at a much higher level.  The fans and their antics are a major factor in the enjoyment of those who actually attend the games, and those who don't attend the games at Lynah (or Lynah East :-) ) anymore may have forgotten exactly what makes Cornell hockey so special.  I haven't.  Every time I attend a game or watch one on i2sports, it reminds me of why I miss Cornell so much, and of how I managed not to go insane from the 170-credit workload I put myself through: because I got to channel the anxiety and aggression building up throughout the week into the opposing goalie every Friday and Saturday night.  Let's not take that away in the name of "protecting the children."  Good god...

Cheers,
Kyle

[canucksfan]

[Q]krose Wrote:

I feel strongly that a college game should be primarily for the college student fans, not the locals and their kids, and the atmosphere should reflect that.
 [/Q]

Get a grip on your ego, man. College games aren't for any fans...they are for the players. And last I checked, students only fill about half of Lynah. I am very proud of how intimidating our rink is and I recognize the contributions of the students to that factor. But to suggest that everyone else should go find other entertainment so that the students can use a full range of curses during the game is pretty selfish. There is a compromise to be found here, and getting rid of the non-students, many of whom are ardent members of the Faithful, is not compromise. It is stupid.

[Rosey]

[Q]canucksfan Wrote:
Get a grip on your ego, man. College games aren't  for  any fans...they are for the players.
[/q]
False.  The fans are an integral part of the success of the Cornell hockey program: Schafer nets a lot of his recruits as a direct result of them seeing how fanatical the following is, for example.  In return for the assistance the Faithful provide to the program, there should be significant consideration given to the desires of the fans to continue exactly what has been successful in helping to drive the program forward. As the old saying goes, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
[q]And last I checked, students only fill about half of Lynah. I am very proud of how intimidating our rink is and I recognize the contributions of the students to that factor. But to suggest that everyone else should go find other entertainment so that the students can use a full range of curses during the game is pretty selfish.[/q]
But to suggest that the students---who comprise the vast majority of the fans who matter---should sacrifice their level of support just so the minority of townies who are really bothered by profanity can have 2-1/2 hours of squeaky-clean entertainment is pretty selfish.  IMO, killing off such an important part of the program simply to satisfy the desires of a small minority is a lot more selfish.

If you don't like the language, get earplugs or go home.  If you don't want your kids to hear the language, don't bring them.  It's real simple.  Don't ask everyone else to change their behavior just to make you feel better.
[q]There is a compromise to be found here, and getting rid of the non-students, many of whom are ardent members of the Faithful, is not compromise. It is stupid. [/Q]
Spare me the sanctimony.  The townie side of the rink is not what gives Lynah its reputation, and you and everyone else here knows it.

Cheers,
Kyle '98

[canucksfan]

I for one have no issue with the language...I have issue with people who want those that don't like the profanity to just go home. And again, while the fans might help Schafer net recruits, the games are not for the fans.

[canucksfan]

I am on your side on many of these issues...signs about players shouldn't be taken away, and the ushers have gotten a bit fanatical. But do you honestly think that players decide to come to Cornell based on the fact that the Faithful say "fuck 'em up" rather than "rough 'em up?"

[Rosey]

[Q]canucksfan Wrote:

 I for one have no issue with the language...I have issue with people who want those that don't like the profanity to just go home.[/q]
Feel free to have all the issues you like: that doesn't change the facts or invalidate my analysis of them.
[q]And again, while the fans might help Schafer net recruits, the games are not for the fans.  [/Q]
While you are technically correct in the sense that the games would still be played even in the absence of fans, the games would ultimately not be worth watching without the crowd support: recruiting, opponents' anxiety, and team spirit would all be adversely affected, leading to a much weaker program.  Thus, my contention is that the program owes the fans, and what they owe the fans is an environment friendly to the sorts of antics that help the program be successful.  Thus, the games are in part for the fans.

Cheers,
Kyle '98

[Rosey]

[Q]canucksfan Wrote:

 I am on your side on many of these issues...signs about players shouldn't be taken away, and the ushers have gotten a bit fanatical. But do you honestly think that players decide to come to Cornell based on the fact that the Faithful say "fuck 'em up" rather than "rough 'em up?" [/Q]
This is a straw man argument.  It's not any particular chant that makes Lynah such a devestating place for opponents to play: it's the entire experience.

I contend that the real problem is that throwing people out for screaming the occasional profanity has a dampening effect on the crowd, resulting in fewer people wanting to act impulsively, something that has in recent years led to a much quieter rink and less rowdy crowd.  The attitude that Cornell fans should be fucking nuts in support of their team has been lost to a confusing debate on what is acceptable behavior in a college hockey rink.  This is terribly unfortunate.

Cheers,
Kyle '98

[KenP]

[Q]krose Wrote:

Extreme fanaticism---of which strong language is de facto a part---is a large part of the reason why Lynah Rink is so feared, and therefore should be tolerated.
[/Q]

I disagree that foul language is de facto part of Cornell's home field advantage.  Opponents fear Lynah because we are (not in any order) raucous, knowledgable, creative, loud, coordinated/organized, and always sold out.  And while I agree that things are getting out of hand in terms of political correctness, I disagree that fans should be allowed to attack our opponents with a barage of f-bombs.  It's boring and uninspired.  Worse, it alienates the students from the community.

Paying to attend a school, camping out overnight, etc., does not relinquish you (generic, I know you graduated) from the responsibility of being a productive member of society.  In another thread someone commented that we wouldn't have a texan named McKee on our team if not for the Dallas Stars.  What about the 11-year-old Ithaca kid with a god-given slapshot who can't see the Red play because the fans are so selfish they can't fucking stop swearing for one goddamn fucking minute?

Sam Paolini earned the Humanitarian Award last year, among other reasons, for working as a volunteer coach for the Ithaca Youth Hockey Association.  Shouldn't that be the example we follow, rather than preserving the "tradition" of saying "fuck 'em up, fuck 'em up"?  Cornell hockey not just for the student fans.  It's for the fans, the student athletes (ours and the opponents), the university, Section O, the community, the alumni, and anyone else out there who wants to walk away from a Cornell victory on the ice with a good feeling.

[Rosey]

[Q]KenP Wrote:
I disagree that foul language is de facto part of Cornell's home field advantage.  Opponents fear Lynah because we are (not in any order) raucous, knowledgable, creative, loud, coordinated/organized, and always sold out.[/q]
Except for the last one, not to the same degree anymore, for the reason I outlined in my last post.
[q]And while I agree that things are getting out of hand in terms of political correctness, I disagree that fans should be allowed to attack our opponents with a barage of f-bombs.  It's boring and uninspired.  Worse, it alienates the students from the community.[/q]
Which community are you talking about?  The only one that matters is the community of Cornell fans, of which the students are the most effective, and therefore most important, part.

If you are talking about the townie community, then I couldn't really care less, and I suspect not too many current students do, either.  If the student fans truly care about improving their image among the townies, then they can volunteer to clean up the language while retaining the impulsiveness that is so desirable.  I doubt this will happen.  My experience from my time at Lynah was that the students tolerated the townies, but were always irritated at having to prompt them to do anything other than clap after a goal.
[q]Paying to attend a school, camping out overnight, etc., does not relinquish you (generic, I know you graduated) from the responsibility of being a productive member of society.[/q]
Screaming, "See ya, asshole!" does not make one an unproductive member of society.
[q]In another thread someone commented that we wouldn't have a texan named McKee on our team if not for the Dallas Stars.  What about the 11-year-old Ithaca kid with a god-given slapshot who can't see the Red play because the fans are so selfish they can't fucking stop swearing for one goddamn fucking minute?[/q]
(a) If parents are so goddamned uptight that they think their kids are going to be permanently harmed by hearing a little profanity, then perhaps you should consider that they are the ones holding back their kids' potential.

(b) I'd be perfectly happy not to swear for one minute, and in fact spent 99%+ of my time in the rink not swearing.  It's the fascist prohibition on swearing for all 150 minutes that's the problem.
[q]Sam Paolini earned the Humanitarian Award last year, among other reasons, for working as a volunteer coach for the Ithaca Youth Hockey Association.  Shouldn't that be the example we follow, rather than preserving the "tradition" of saying "fuck 'em up, fuck 'em up"?[/q]
And I'd be willing to bet Paolini, like all the other Cornell hockey players I've known, swore like a trucker when he wasn't working directly with the kids. :-)  A prohibition on swearing while coaching little kids is perfectly reasonable; a prohbition on swearing in a college hockey rink is not.

Cheers,
Kyle '98

[Jim Hyla]

[Q]krose wrote:    But to suggest that the students---who comprise the vast majority of the fans who matter[/Q]Some of us might disagree with you on this issue. Some of us have been supporting CU hockey for longer than you have been alive. Many of us even screem at times, although much of our support comes in different ways.

Do you even know that hockey boosters used to room players during the year, before that was made illegal. Talk about support! There are boosters who go to every game home and away, and many of us who get to as many as we can.

I won't bother to mention the degre of finacial support that is given, and unlike those other sports universities, all that is asked in return is a good effort and alot of fun.

There are many ways to "matter", so don't put everyone else, who happens to be different than you, down.

And above all, please remember it was Coach Schafer who wanted the language cleaned up.I'm sure he was not doing it to make his hockey program less intimidating.

[Rosey]

[Q]Jim Hyla Wrote:
There are many ways to "matter", so don't put everyone else, who happens to be different than you, down.[/q]
Jim, by "matter" you know I'm talking specifically about mattering during a game.  The fact that you give financially or boosters used to board hockey players or some other random non-student likes to wear his Cornell jersey on game days in Boston ( :-) ) means absolutely squat to the intimidation factor in the rink.  During a game, the students---not the townies---are the ones coming up with the clever cheers, jeers, goalie insults, signs, chest paint, etc., and IMO that means they should be granted wide latitude in their behavior so as not to diminish the atmosphere in which the really clever stuff is devised.
[q]And above all, please remember it was Coach Schafer who wanted the language cleaned up.[/q]
Thanks, Poirot. :-)
[q]I'm sure he was not doing it to make his hockey program less intimidating.[/Q]
Nevertheless, that has been a real side effect.  Perhaps he should revisit his decision.

Cheers,
Kyle '98

[Steve Marciniec \'85]

I'm on your side Kyle, and I would be a complete hypocrite if I weren't.  I was proud to be part of a crowd that gives Lynah one of the toughest, if not the toughest home ice advantages in the nation for opposing teams to overcome, and I would hate to see it become a thing of the past.

Swearing at games is not in particular what makes Lynah Rink intimidating.  However, having to worry about getting tossed out of the rink because you said bullshit, asshole, or sucks () even just once is likely to make a fan less rowdy.  It also sounds like some people have stopped attending games because of the Rink Nazis.  I know that some may say that we don't need these fans because they don't love hockey enough, but if Lynah is getting quieter and the games aren't selling out, we certainly do need them.

College sports are for the players, the student fans, the alumni, and then fans not associated with the University in that order.  Of the people who come to see the games, the students are by far the most important.  In another thread a fellow alum stated something to the effect that the raucous environment at Lynah that he thought was great as a student had lost its appeal now that he has a wife and child he would like to bring to the games.  He effectively said: "I was dandy to raise hell when I was young, but now that I'm past that, all of you young ruffians better behave so I can have the best possible experience for my family when I return to visit".  How much more sefish can one get?    

Parents who think they are going to shelter their kids from hearing profanity in 2004 are delusional.  I routinely hear people swearing for no good reason while walking down the sidewalk outside my house.  If you think it's that bad, explain to your child that he or she will hear some words you don't approve of.  Or wait until your children are older to take them to Lynah.

[Tom Pasniewski 98]

I've heard that back in the day, Mike Teeter used to house a good part of the team.  Would love to hear more about that.  

I think having a recruit come to Lynah and be told - this is Mike Teeter - he's been with the program for 40 years and here's Coach Schafer - he played for four years and has been the coach for 10 and is very well respected and here's Arthur Mintz, he's been announcing games since the 80's and will be still when you bring your grandchildren back and here's all of these fans who have followed the team since the 1960's and here's the history of some of the numbers you might wear and yes, this rink has been around since 1957 and yes of course this is the same place where Dryden played, where 'the perfect season' was played, where hockey fans know their stuff and will scrutinize you, support you and make you become a better hockey player carries more weight with a recruit when he realizes the skates he's filling, the people who will immediately surround him and the tradition he may get to carry on than the atmosphere at Lynah which will always be loud even if the language is cleaned up.

Oh and yes recruit, there's this cowbell guy too and he.....:-D

[Tom Pasniewski 98]

And I forgot to mention that the vast amount of a player's time is spent at Lynah in front of little or no fans at practice and a player realizes that.

Also, with regards to cursing and I take no position here, imagine you were the only fan at Lynah during a game - would you scream fuck 'em up, fuck 'em up and have everybody know it was you or would you just make a lot of noise in support and to taunt the opposing team.  This is the mob mentality theory and we know there are some at Lynah who just say things because others say it and then there are those who are creative.