Castagna and Walsh - The Worry Zone

[stereax]

I never played hockey so I'm not an expert. When Bancroft left Cornell as a junior to go pro, I was kind of surprised. The kid was a sniper and had a hard shot, but was he well rounded enough to turn pro and have legit chance? He seems to be getting more playing time with his new team so maybe this is breakthrough he needed?
    To me, Walsh and Castagna bring much more. Both are better defensively, better on face offs, quicker, etc. I think with Walsh wearing the "C" it made him a little too unselfish at times this season. He's very talented and I think there were a few times he could have "taken over" more than he did.
    Anyway, in my head: "if Bancroft went pro, then surely Walsh and Castagna will go". Would be interested in hearing thoughts from people with more
Knowledge about this.

I won't say i have more knowledge - Bancroft either didn't play much for Providence or struggled this year.  I think Calgary presents an opportunity for Castagna, he will be one of a slew of young players trying to establish themselves and will have the opportunity to do that.  As we discussed Boston isn't even giving Hagens an nhl contract yet so it looks like Walsh's path with that team is more complicated.  For both of them it's not clear how much more growth they can experience as players through another year of ECAC hockey.  Would say that especially about Castagna.  Would think those factors are the biggest ones for these kids.

I definitely mentioned this before on the forums, but with Bancroft the main issue is he wasn't drafted. So when you have legit NHL attention like that it's pretty difficult to say no. Obviously, that doesn't mean being drafted changes everything, but generally when you're drafted, you have a couple of years of conversations with agents, with the team and stuff, and you have more of an idea of where you stand. When you're undrafted and a team comes knocking with an ELC, you really want to sign it because you don't know what's going to happen next year.

Especially with Castagna, I really don't know what a 4th year of NCAA hockey could give him at this point - 65% on the dot, over PPG, etcetera. Doesn't feel like he has much to prove (besides trying to win a national championship, but 63/64 teams a year don't do that). You also kind of have to factor in that if, for example, Casty drops off a cliff next year, it changes the discussions with the team as well.

I also discussed this a couple of weeks ago, but the center depth on the Flames is really, really bad. Like - they probably have the worst centers in the NHL. I think it's Backlund, Frost, Strome, Gross right now? Which is disgusting and not in a good way - Backy is probably a 2C at best, ditto Frost, Strome fell off a cliff, and Gross just signed like a week ago. So there's a ton of opportunity for Castagna to step right into a 3C or 2C role, at least until the end of the year, and then they'll reevaluate.

Notably, since Castagna is a Canadian citizen and the Flames are a Canadian team, he doesn't have to have an entire visa process the way Sacha Boisvert did. That being said, since he would be under contract and thus no longer be a student (he can still take classes of course and finish his current schedule - and I would be surprised if he wasn't back in Ithaca in May to finish his finals), he would still definitely need to have his visa changed to accommodate that. So it might take a couple of days for that to go through - so we might not see him on Monday vs Colorado, but they'll probably fold him into the Flames team at that time.

On Walsh - again, they don't even want to sign Hagens to a professional contract yet, and they're trying to make him a winger for whatever reason? So if the choice is AHL to end the year or finishing up school with the guys in Ithaca, Walsh is probably going to choose the latter because that gives him flexibility for next year. At that point, in the summer, he can just say "I'm going to do next year with the Big Red if you don't give me an ELC" and see where that leads him with the Bruins organization. He seems to be very fond of the Bruins and I do think he's probably going to sign there eventually (especially if they keep him at center, which is a position of weakness right now within the org), but he can always leverage that senior year and play hardball with the org. Because again, once you graduate, you have those 30 days and you can then sign with any team you want. So if the prospects within the Bruins organization don't look too good, Walsh can always do what it sounded like Casty might have done had he not been traded, which is, ultimately, draft dodge and sign with someone else as a college free agent. (Think Jimmy Vesey here.) I mean very notably, since last year, you have Minten and Hagens who have joined the organization - one is currently the top line center and the other probably should be the second line center. Plus, Elias Lindholm is with the organization until 2031, barring a trade. If you look at 27-28, which realistically is probably when you'd expect Walsh to be a full-timer if he signs today, that's three centers already locked in, plus that high Leafs draft pick that might net the Bruins a fourth high-upside center.

I'll also mention that part of the reason Hagens signed now, as opposed to waiting it out until the summer - as I suspect Walsh will - is because both sides wanted him to get professional games in, with the possibility/likelihood of still signing that ELC in a week or two to burn the year. The thing is that if you sign the ELC now, you can't actually be sent down to the AHL. So if they sign Walsh to an ELC now, they have to keep him on the NHL roster until the end of the year. For a guy like Castagna, who the Flames already want in the NHL, that's not a problem. For a guy like Walsh, who the Bruins almost certainly don't want in the NHL this year, that's a problem. You saw guys last year, like Quinn Hutson, sign the ELC and only play a couple of games, being healthy scratched for the rest of them - in those cases, however, the benefit of having the player signed to the ELC (namely, team control for the next few years) was critical. (This Hutson was undrafted and likely could have window shopped for another team that would give him the ELC, given the amount of interest in him.)

My thing is, I'm always a little bit of the opinion that more years in college will help you improve. Not just because I want to see our guys go for 4 years, but college is a distinctly different experience than NHL/AHL professional hockey. When you're in the professional leagues, you have a lot less time to learn the game, train, hit the weight room, etcetera - you're constantly on the move and don't have very much free time to yourself. There are definitely reasons someone may prefer the college experience - even emotionally, not wanting to leave the team after that kind of loss to Denver.

In any case, we'll see what happens. I think I've convinced myself that if Walsh signs (and I can't say for sure that he will), it's going to be over the summer, due to everything I've outlined above.

Great take on things, as usual!
Thanks for laying things out!

Of course! Sorry I yap so much - but hopefully it's useful for those of us that don't follow NHL hockey as much 😅

(If you couldn't tell one of the things I really like about hockey is the contract/cap stuff... now ya know!)

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

(If you couldn't tell one of the things I really like about hockey is the contract/cap stuff... now ya know!)

Freakin' lawyers.

 

[stereax]

(If you couldn't tell one of the things I really like about hockey is the contract/cap stuff... now ya know!)

Freakin' lawyers.

 

😂😂😂 it's so much fun though!

Fun fact, I'm helping a friend with an NHL cap tracker website - it's not online right now because she's doing a ton of bulk data changing things and hasn't had time to update it, but that's also part of where my love of contract stuff comes from, having to figure out the rules for that site :')

[upprdeck]

Castagna can sign a 3 yr deal this yr or next.  It comes down to getting a degree, playing with teammates.  Does he want to play for the team that drafted him and take that deal or go back into the pool and get drafted again.

Isnt his 3 yr rights done this year?

[stereax]

Castagna can sign a 3 yr deal this yr or next.  It comes down to getting a degree, playing with teammates.  Does he want to play for the team that drafted him and take that deal or go back into the pool and get drafted again.

Isnt his 3 yr rights done this year?

He can't get redrafted. If he plays another year at Cornell, he'd be a college free agent. Different thing.

And they changed the rules - now, when you start the NCAA, you get 4 years to finish your degree. Pretty sure this is retroactive too. If you expedite it and finish in 3, like Wiebe is doing, then you get 3 years. After you finish, you have 30 days to negotiate with your draft club - if you don't figure it out by then, you become a free agent.

From what I've heard, he's going to finish his degree either way. Wouldn't be surprised if he finishes the credits for it over the summer.

[marty]

(If you couldn't tell one of the things I really like about hockey is the contract/cap stuff... now ya know!)

Freakin' lawyers.

 

Could be a future there?

[stereax]

(If you couldn't tell one of the things I really like about hockey is the contract/cap stuff... now ya know!)

Freakin' lawyers.

 

Could be a future there?

I wish...

[stereax]

Francis:

Flames prospect Jonathan Castagna is waiting at the Flames hotel in Denver, where the team will arrive later today.
The big centre from Cornell, who was acquired in the Weegar trade, has not made a jump to the pros official by signing his name to a contract just yet.
But I'd expect him to be part of the team's morning skate tomorrow.

[BearLover]

Too bad. Greatly hurts our chances next season. If only Utah had held onto him we would have had frozen four potential.

[BearLover]

I'll say one thing about Castagna—this whole thing about Calgary sending a bunch of execs to his Colorado hotel and putting a full court press on him to sign feels rushed and a little unfair to him. He just got traded and was focused on the playoffs; he's barely had time to think about this! Most players know for most of the season if they plan to go pro when the season is over. We know from reporting that Castagna was NOT going to go pro with Utah this season, meaning he has only had the last two weeks—which, again, were focused on the playoffs—to figure out what he wants to do now. You'd think Jonathan would sit down with not just the Flames but also his family and current team and talk about this. But his team flew back to Ithaca yesterday morning and it's now just him and the Flames brass. I'm sure he's being as thoughtful as he can, but I don't know how you could possibly accurately weigh all the options under these circumstances.

[abmarks]

I'll say one thing about Castagna—this whole thing about Calgary sending a bunch of execs to his Colorado hotel and putting a full court press on him to sign feels rushed and a little unfair to him. He just got traded and was focused on the playoffs; he's barely had time to think about this! Most players know for most of the season if they plan to go pro when the season is over. We know from reporting that Castagna was NOT going to go pro with Utah this season, meaning he has only had the last two weeks—which, again, were focused on the playoffs—to figure out what he wants to do now. You'd think Jonathan would sit down with not just the Flames but also his family and current team and talk about this. But his team flew back to Ithaca yesterday morning and it's now just him and the Flames brass. I'm sure he's being as thoughtful as he can, but I don't know how you could possibly accurately weigh all the options under these circumstances.

Again all projection andd assumption;  just because you feel blindsided clearly by the rapidity of events doesn't mean he is.


You don't know whether his agent came into town or not. 
You don't know how much time he spent talking with his agent or his family since the trade and I think it would be naive to decide that he hadn't. 
You don't know whether he's talked to Casey in the last 2 weeks or even if Casey might have brought it up with Johnny after the trade came down if even in the informal "hey how you feeling about all this" sort of way.

You seem to believe this is all a complete surprise that Calgary would want to sign them as soon as we lost. It's plausible, though I certainly would not say more likely than not, that Calgary and his agent spoke about all sorts of possibilities and one of them was hey. Hey, let's talk as soon as they're out and if they happen to get knocked out in Denver we're going to be there a couple days later so let's all figure this out in Denver cuz we'd love to sign them and have them in the lineup on Tuesday if that happens.

And saying it's just him and the flame's brass implies that the three of them are going to be locked in a room where Calgary's not going to let him leave until he signs under pressure negotiation or something ridiculous like that.   Not having seen any reporting that said castagna is an idiot, kid will be smart enough to have dinner with the people from Calgary or whatever and get the sales pitch but completely defer to his agent to actually handle things.

And if his agent is any good whatsoever and had any concerns about the Calgary  representatives showing up in  Denver and the amount of pressure that might put on Jonathan, than the agent is going to tell Calgary not to show up And tell Johnny not to meet with them at all If they do.

[Trotsky]

I've talked a bit with Castagna's parents over the years.  They are savvy.  There is no way Jonathan is not an active, willing, and witting participant in everything.  It's not an ambush.  The team is playing it cynically to max out whatever burst of hype they can generate and start the long process of turning him into their cash cow.  The family is playing it to both protect his interests and also help that process since after his servitude that investment rebounds to his market value.

Since it is 99% certain he is gone I can say with as much confidence as anybody not in the actual know that he will definitely complete his degree by whatever means.  The family was impressed and proud of Cornell and comes out of this as potentially amazing ambassadors for us, and if Castagna becomes a star that can only help us down the line.

Everybody wins.  There is a reason Mike bent over backwards to help his players who wanted to jump, was always supportive, never stood in the way, and always made the family the center of the decision.  Not just because he is a good guy, though he is, but because it's the smart play.  You don't sell a car, you sell the next ten cars.

[scoop85]

I'll say one thing about Castagna—this whole thing about Calgary sending a bunch of execs to his Colorado hotel and putting a full court press on him to sign feels rushed and a little unfair to him. He just got traded and was focused on the playoffs; he's barely had time to think about this! Most players know for most of the season if they plan to go pro when the season is over. We know from reporting that Castagna was NOT going to go pro with Utah this season, meaning he has only had the last two weeks—which, again, were focused on the playoffs—to figure out what he wants to do now. You'd think Jonathan would sit down with not just the Flames but also his family and current team and talk about this. But his team flew back to Ithaca yesterday morning and it's now just him and the Flames brass. I'm sure he's being as thoughtful as he can, but I don't know how you could possibly accurately weigh all the options under these circumstances.

Stunningly naive take. Porter Martone signed with the Flyers less than 24 hours after his team lost a game in the most excruciating way that would've sent them to the frozen four.

[BearLover]

I'll say one thing about Castagna—this whole thing about Calgary sending a bunch of execs to his Colorado hotel and putting a full court press on him to sign feels rushed and a little unfair to him. He just got traded and was focused on the playoffs; he's barely had time to think about this! Most players know for most of the season if they plan to go pro when the season is over. We know from reporting that Castagna was NOT going to go pro with Utah this season, meaning he has only had the last two weeks—which, again, were focused on the playoffs—to figure out what he wants to do now. You'd think Jonathan would sit down with not just the Flames but also his family and current team and talk about this. But his team flew back to Ithaca yesterday morning and it's now just him and the Flames brass. I'm sure he's being as thoughtful as he can, but I don't know how you could possibly accurately weigh all the options under these circumstances.

Stunningly naive take. Porter Martone signed with the Flyers less than 24 hours after his team lost a game in the most excruciating way that would've sent them to the frozen four.

Did you not read my post? I said that most players know all year whether they will sign. It has been reported that Castagna planned NOT to sign until 2 weeks ago, when he got traded to the Flames, and since then he's been busy with the playoffs. He hasn't had time to think about it. "Stunningly naive," really? What a randomly rude thing to say. Yes, I am fully aware of Martone. The reason he signed right away is because he was planning on doing so all season.

[scoop85]

I'll say one thing about Castagna—this whole thing about Calgary sending a bunch of execs to his Colorado hotel and putting a full court press on him to sign feels rushed and a little unfair to him. He just got traded and was focused on the playoffs; he's barely had time to think about this! Most players know for most of the season if they plan to go pro when the season is over. We know from reporting that Castagna was NOT going to go pro with Utah this season, meaning he has only had the last two weeks—which, again, were focused on the playoffs—to figure out what he wants to do now. You'd think Jonathan would sit down with not just the Flames but also his family and current team and talk about this. But his team flew back to Ithaca yesterday morning and it's now just him and the Flames brass. I'm sure he's being as thoughtful as he can, but I don't know how you could possibly accurately weigh all the options under these circumstances.

Stunningly naive take. Porter Martone signed with the Flyers less than 24 hours after his team lost a game in the most excruciating way that would've sent them to the frozen four.

Did you not read my post? I said that most players know all year whether they will sign. It has been reported that Castagna planned NOT to sign until 2 weeks ago, when he got traded to the Flames, and since then he's been busy with the playoffs. He hasn't had time to think about it. "Stunningly naive," really? What a randomly rude thing to say. Yes, I am fully aware of Martone. The reason he signed right away is because he was planning on doing so all season.

Sorry you feel offended, but if you don't believe that a guy like Castagna, along with his family and agent, weren't discussing and planning for this scenario the moment the trade went down, then your post comes off as naive to me. Maybe be others here think like you do, but I suspect the vast majority would take my view.