Cornell lacrosse 2023

[Chris '03]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

[mike1960]

I re-watched some of the Penn game and I think I have a better appreciation of how our offense works. In one sense, it's pretty straightforward lacrosse: we drive the alley (Kelleher) to put stress on the defense, pass the ball around quickly because the ball moves faster than the defense. We break down defenses by forcing them to slide and switch until they are lost and out of position, leaving an offense player with high percentage shot -- a step down, back door, crease attack pass. But this offense requires good vision and absolutely requires that we make accurate passes to another player at the stick above the shoulder. If the pass is low or high, everything stops for us, and we have to get it cranked up again. We are not good when the man at X holds the ball when the defensive man is hung, or when one of our players holds the ball too long. We are not a cutting offense; it's rare to see a cutter, although often have a crease attackman ready in the middle.

We did not run this offense very often in the Penn State game. That game was all about individual dodges and shots (too many) from outside. Three of our six goals were unassisted and seemed to lead to many more attempts at unassisted goals. I think the only time we really ran our team offense was in the man-down situation close to the end of the game.

Going forward, I like our chances when we're moving the ball.

[BearLover]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

Looking back at 2007...what in the world? Was the Ivy League horrible that season? We beat Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton (all of whom made the tournament, Duke as the 1-seed), Syracuse...seems like a massive botch by the committee seeding us 4th. Still, I can't imagine something like that happens this year if we were to run the table, given where we currently sit (5th in the rankings at 6-1).

[Al DeFlorio]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

Looking back at 2007...what in the world? Was the Ivy League horrible that season? We beat Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton (all of whom made the tournament, Duke as the 1-seed), Syracuse...seems like a massive botch by the committee seeding us 4th. Still, I can't imagine something like that happens this year if we were to run the table, given where we currently sit (5th in the rankings at 6-1).

Came down to RPI.  Committee chair after the fact said they moved Cornell up a seed or two despite where Cornell ranked in RPI.  The committee now looks at more (e.g., who'd you beat; who beat you) in making selections and seeding.  See last year's correct decisions on Duke and ND.

The real crime in 2007 was being seeded below Hopkins.  Hop was 1-4 against the other teams seeded 1 through 8, but somehow was seeded third.  Ridiculous.  But their SOS and RPI scores were high and that's what drove selection and seeding, to a fault.  Too few games played in lacrosse to drive selection and seeding only by numbers, and the numbers (SOS, RPI) are too much a function of whom you played, not your wins and losses

[scoop85]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

Looking back at 2007...what in the world? Was the Ivy League horrible that season? We beat Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton (all of whom made the tournament, Duke as the 1-seed), Syracuse...seems like a massive botch by the committee seeding us 4th. Still, I can't imagine something like that happens this year if we were to run the table, given where we currently sit (5th in the rankings at 6-1).

Came down to RPI.  Committee chair after the fact said they moved Cornell up a seed or two despite where Cornell ranked in RPI.  The committee now looks at more (e.g., who'd you beat; who beat you) in making selections and seeding.  See last year's correct decisions on Duke and ND.

The real crime in 2007 was being seeded below Hopkins.  Hop was 1-4 against the other teams seeded 1 through 8, but somehow was seeded third.  Ridiculous.  But their SOS and RPI scores were high and that's what drove selection and seeding, to a fault.  Too few games played in lacrosse to drive selection and seeding only by numbers, and the numbers (SOS, RPI) are too much a function of whom you played, not your wins and losses

So as a result Hopkins got the much easier semifinal against upstart Delaware while we lost on the last second goal to Duke in the stifling heat. A rested Hopkins then went on to beat Duke in the final. Gotta believe had we gotten the 3 seed we would have taken the trophy.

[upprdeck]

I am hoping that with the warmer weather the passing continues to improve. the PSU game was played in cold conditions that didnt help in trying to move the ball around quickly..

[Al DeFlorio]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

Looking back at 2007...what in the world? Was the Ivy League horrible that season? We beat Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton (all of whom made the tournament, Duke as the 1-seed), Syracuse...seems like a massive botch by the committee seeding us 4th. Still, I can't imagine something like that happens this year if we were to run the table, given where we currently sit (5th in the rankings at 6-1).

Came down to RPI.  Committee chair after the fact said they moved Cornell up a seed or two despite where Cornell ranked in RPI.  The committee now looks at more (e.g., who'd you beat; who beat you) in making selections and seeding.  See last year's correct decisions on Duke and ND.

The real crime in 2007 was being seeded below Hopkins.  Hop was 1-4 against the other teams seeded 1 through 8, but somehow was seeded third.  Ridiculous.  But their SOS and RPI scores were high and that's what drove selection and seeding, to a fault.  Too few games played in lacrosse to drive selection and seeding only by numbers, and the numbers (SOS, RPI) are too much a function of whom you played, not your wins and losses

So as a result Hopkins got the much easier semifinal against upstart Delaware while we lost on the last second goal to Duke in the stifling heat. A rested Hopkins then went on to beat Duke in the final. Gotta believe had we gotten the 3 seed we would have taken the trophy.

Delaware's only weapon was a phenomenal FOGO who'd win cleanly, run down the field and score a goal before the defense could set up.  Pietramala neutered him by having his FOGO jump the gun and give the ball to Delaware so Hop could get set on defense. Hop was just so much better than Delaware in all phases of the game except faceoffs it was no contest.

This led to a rules change where after so many faceoff violations in a half a team was assessed a man-down penalty.

[Chris '03]

No idea after the top 3-5 teams who is good.. Too bad Cornell didnt beat PSU it would make it much clearer.

Indeed. We'd be top three except then how would the voters break apart the Virginia-Notre Dame-Maryland holy trinity so at least one of them would hold the top spot?

Cornell wins out including Army and Princeton, we might still be outside the top four seeds (Duke being the other).

If Cornell wins out, that means they win the Ivy tournament and finish 14-1. Cornell would 100% be a top 4 seed under those circumstances, possibly first overall. The teams ahead of us aren't all going to win out. In fact, that would be impossible since some of them will play each other, multiple times. Cornell controls its own destiny.

They went undefeated in 2007 and were seeded fourth behind three and four loss southern teams. So I'm not counting on anything in a sport that gives the committee discretion.

Looking back at 2007...what in the world? Was the Ivy League horrible that season? We beat Duke, Notre Dame, Princeton (all of whom made the tournament, Duke as the 1-seed), Syracuse...seems like a massive botch by the committee seeding us 4th. Still, I can't imagine something like that happens this year if we were to run the table, given where we currently sit (5th in the rankings at 6-1).

Came down to RPI.  Committee chair after the fact said they moved Cornell up a seed or two despite where Cornell ranked in RPI.  The committee now looks at more (e.g., who'd you beat; who beat you) in making selections and seeding.  See last year's correct decisions on Duke and ND.

The real crime in 2007 was being seeded below Hopkins.  Hop was 1-4 against the other teams seeded 1 through 8, but somehow was seeded third.  Ridiculous.  But their SOS and RPI scores were high and that's what drove selection and seeding, to a fault.  Too few games played in lacrosse to drive selection and seeding only by numbers, and the numbers (SOS, RPI) are too much a function of whom you played, not your wins and losses

The insular schedule created all kinds of issues. I think this may have been the first year of the ACC tournament too? It allowed the SOS criteria to drop some weaker opponents from the calculation (I think only the best ten counted? And with the ACC tournament, those teams ended up playing a few more games than the ivies?). Hopkins got the benefit of being an independent and scheduling enough good teams for good SOS and enough bad teams to ensure a winning record.

[upprdeck]

Duke has taken advantage of schedule for a few yrs now. playing games with fall/spring games

[billhoward]

Cornell went up 3-0 in the first 70 seconds, 10-2 at the first quarter break, then cruised the rest of the way, led by ~10 most of the second half.

Code Select Expand

Final:
[b]Dartmouth    2  2  3  4  -- 11[color=#FF0000]
Cornell     10  4  4  4  -- 22[/color][/b]

CJ Kirst      5-1--6
Aiden Blake   4-0--4
Billy Coyle   2-2--4
Hugh Kelleher 4-0--4
Nice symmetry: 10 goal outburst in the first for Cornell, then 4 each period the rest of the way, and for the second week in a row, Cornell doubles an Ivy opponent. Cornell was 21x37 on faceoffs, which had been Dartmouth's strength. Ground balls, 44-25 Cornell.

Also Saturday, Ivies and Cornell opponents (and people we'd like to see lose):
Penn 17, Yale 16 (Penn 5 goals, Yale 2 in the fourth)
Harvard 14, Colgate 10
Army 12, Bucknell 7
Princeton 16 (2-1 Ivy now), Brown 12 (0-2)
Also:
Michigan 16, #2 Maryland 11, final, at Maryland. Wow, that drops the Terps to 6-3. They'll probably fall to fourth in the polls, only one place ahead of stuck-in-fifth-by-voters-who-don't-know-the-Civil-War-ended Cornell.  
Friday, #4 Duke 16 (10-1, loss to Jacksonville, OT wins vs. Denver, Syracuse), @ #1 Virginia (7-2, losses to Maryland, Duke) 14.




Pre-game:
Cornell press release posits today's game against Dartmouth, 12/1 at noon at Schoellkopf (rainy, mid-60s), as the battle for league supremacy. This via a release on Inside Lacrosse naming Gavin Adler ("Alder" ) and CJ Kirst to the first team and Chase Ierlan to the third team.

Hard to think of Dartmouth as other than the Ivy League doormat. Last week, Dartmouth got its first Ivy win since 2015, in OT against Harvard. They're 1-0 Ivy vs. Cornell's 2-0, and both are 6-1 overall, Dartmouth's only loss versus North Carolina. In the polls, Dartmouth is also-receiving-votes versus Cornell's fifth place.

Cornell mid-season All-America choices: https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/2023-men-s-di-midseason-media-all-americans-duke-virginia-notre-dame-maryland-lead-the-way/61075
A-Connor Shellenberger, Virginia
A-CJ Kirst, Cornell
A-Brennan O'Neill, Duke
A/M-Matt Campbell, Villanova
M-Sam Handley, Penn
M-Thomas McConvey, Virginia
FO-Jake Naso, Duke
SSDM-Connor Maher, North Carolina
SSDM-Chet Comizio, Villanova
LSM-Roy Meyer, Boston U
D-Gavin Adler, Cornell
D-Brett Makar, Maryland
D-Owen Grant, Delaware
G-Will Mark, Syracuse

Cornell pre-game notes: https://cornellbigred.com/news/2023/3/29/mens-lacrosse-hosts-the-green-in-saturday-matinee.aspx
Inside Lacrosse, "How Dartmouth's Turnaround Has Been Building For Years": https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/-buckle-your-chinstrap-and-go-back-to-work-how-dartmouth-s-turnaround-has-been-building-for-years/61064

[upprdeck]

cornell fav by 8 was an interesting line i saw this week.

[mike1960]

I'd call that a good start. 3-0 in about a minute.

[ugarte]

cornell fav by 8 was an interesting line i saw this week.

1:04 in and Cornell is up 3-0 so if you can still get money on the over...

[semsox]

Looks like no Long again. Don't hate it if it increases his chances of playing during the stretch run

[billhoward]

No Michael Long on attack, he's "game to game." Nice to see him next week, but we want him healthy in May and if he can come back in April, great.