ECAC Schedule

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

#2 This is exactly the reason why these tests should only be used by researchers. 10% false positive & 1% false negative is exactly the wrong way for a test like this to result. The worst that a false negative would do is make you continue to act safely. A false positive however might get you to act unsafely, and that's bad for you and all of us.

Wouldn't a false positive make someone do something like quarantine unnecessarily?  Or do you reckon it would make them think they were immune and invincible once two weeks had passed?  It seems like a false negative would be more dangerous, in that it would make someone miss an infection.

And of course we're one number (the percentage of the general population infected) away from an intro stats Bayes's Theorem problem...

This was an antibody test, not a PCR test.  The presumption of antibodies means you already had the disease.  My thinking was a positive would tend to make someone try to resume their life.  If it was a false positive, they would be exposing themselves without having presumed immunity.

If someone tests positive, can't they still be a carrier?

Jim would know better than I, but as I understand it, the jury is still out.  One question is how long a person is contagious.  I've read that if you are actively symptomatic, you won't have built up enough antibodies to test positive for a few weeks.  And according to the Abbott Labs page:  

When your test is positive for the IgG antibodies for the COVID-19 virus, it means that your body is fighting off the infection or has already fought it off. Typically for most viruses, once you have developed the IgG antibodies, you are no longer contagious because the antibodies attack and inactivate the virus. But because the COVID-19 virus is new, more research is needed to determine if this is true for this specific virus. People should always talk to their physician about managing their health.

So...maybe?

[osorojo]

Covid 19 trumps* any and all pre-existing schedule arrangements and even the organizations, such as the ECAC, which make them. Collegiate hockey schools all have Athletic Directors and communication equipment. How about we let A.D.'s, just not money-men, schedule hockey games? Let athletes play the game they love, show their stuff, and for the moment at least ignore the profit motive? *the verb- not the @#$%!

[Trotsky]

In this instance it's not a particular character within the school who is the villain.  It is the school.  Cornell opened, for whatever asinine reason.  Presumably it was money; since 1648 stupid things are money 97% of the time.  

So now they're stuck: every subsequent Cornell action has to justify that decision.  They can't spike sports for being wildly and unnecessarily dangerous since if they do then why the fuck did they open?

So we'll get sports.  Hurrah.

[scoop85]

In this instance it's not a particular character within the school who is the villain.  It is the school.  Cornell opened, for whatever asinine reason.  Presumably it was money; since 1648 stupid things are money 97% of the time.  

So now they're stuck: every subsequent Cornell action has to justify that decision.  They can't spike sports for being wildly and unnecessarily dangerous since if they do then why the fuck did they open?

So we'll get sports.  Hurrah.

Cynical as it (arguably) may have been for those colleges that are having students on campus to have opened, I can tell you that my son, a freshman at Colgate, is having a much better experience being on campus then I would've imagined given the strict rules they are enforcing.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

Covid 19 trumps* any and all pre-existing schedule arrangements and even the organizations, such as the ECAC, which make them. Collegiate hockey schools all have Athletic Directors and communication equipment. How about we let A.D.'s, just not money-men, schedule hockey games? Let athletes play the game they love, show their stuff, and for the moment at least ignore the profit motive? *the verb- not the @#$%!

AD's are the money men.

[osorojo]

AD's are money men? I always wondered what they did. Then after an A.D. has negotiated a time and place for a hockey game with another school's Athletic Director the two of them could man the gates and collect admission money.

[upprdeck]

much better for cornell to not have opened in person and closed for good given the budget issues they faced?

[Trotsky]

much better for cornell to not have opened in person and closed for good given the budget issues they faced?

Scale it back to the Arts and Ag quads, plow the rest under, replant the elms.

[Jim Hyla]

I'm back. Not to arbitrarily pull us back to virus testing, but since I was mentioned, I'll try and explain this as much as I know it.

As noted Jeff got an antibody test, which says nothing about current infection. It just means that you've had exposure to the virus, or part of the virus if you're dealing with immunization, and your immune system has reacted by making antibodies. Those can sometime be made quickly enough to help a current infection, but are most important in fighting subsequent infections.

During this whole process you generally make 2 types of antibodies, IgM and IgG. IgM is made first and usually only stays around for a limited time, months not years. IgG takes longer to make, but can, and that doesn't mean will, stay around for lifetime. Once your body has learned to make the IgG it can gear up quickly to make more. So it is helpful in fighting further infections.

In regarding the test that Jeff was talking about, I'd assumed that it was an IgG test, and he did then say that. Since it takes time to make IgG, it usually means that the infection was in the past and your body has fought it off. An IgM antibody could be found with an infection that you're currently fighting. So knowing that you have IgG present means you've seen this before, usually not now.

The usefulness of knowing you have IgG could be that you don't have to worry about further infection. Unless the virus mutates into something the IgG no longer recognizes. And that is probably how a few people have been shown to get infected twice. The European virus is different in some ways from the Chinese virus.

So that's the first problem with measuring IgG. Like the flu, the virus could mutate and you get sick again. We need more knowledge of the type of IgG our body makes to understand this better.

As I understand most of the vaccines that they talk about, they are directed against part of the virus that if it mutates, it won't cause infection. For example, at least some of the vaccines are against a part of the virus that is needed to attach to a cell. So if that mutates, the virus probably can't infect.

The problem with current antibody testing is that we don't really know what kind of IgG they are measuring. So they may signify prior infection, but they don't tell us that our current antibodies will prevent further infection. However, the fact that pooled serum transfusion seems to help in fighting the infection off, suggests that we do make helpful antibodies. They just don't say if they will fight off a mutated virus. It's for that reason that I suspect that the vaccine will be recommended, even for people who have had an infection.

Time and research will eventually sort this out. For now, and into the foreseeable future, masks will be needed for all.

You'll notice that I've used a lot of unless, usually and probably terms. That's what make biology, and medicine in particular, interesting and fun. Each patient is a little different from the others.

Maybe too long a post for hockey fans, but I hope it helps.

[Trotsky]

Thank you very much Jim.

[Swampy]

I'm back. Not to arbitrarily pull us back to virus testing, but since I was mentioned, I'll try and explain this as much as I know it.

As noted Jeff got an antibody test, which says nothing about current infection. It just means that you've had exposure to the virus, or part of the virus if you're dealing with immunization, and your immune system has reacted by making antibodies. Those can sometime be made quickly enough to help a current infection, but are most important in fighting subsequent infections.

During this whole process you generally make 2 types of antibodies, IgM and IgG. IgM is made first and usually only stays around for a limited time, months not years. IgG takes longer to make, but can, and that doesn't mean will, stay around for lifetime. Once your body has learned to make the IgG it can gear up quickly to make more. So it is helpful in fighting further infections.

In regarding the test that Jeff was talking about, I'd assumed that it was an IgG test, and he did then say that. Since it takes time to make IgG, it usually means that the infection was in the past and your body has fought it off. An IgM antibody could be found with an infection that you're currently fighting. So knowing that you have IgG present means you've seen this before, usually not now.

The usefulness of knowing you have IgG could be that you don't have to worry about further infection. Unless the virus mutates into something the IgG no longer recognizes. And that is probably how a few people have been shown to get infected twice. The European virus is different in some ways from the Chinese virus.

So that's the first problem with measuring IgG. Like the flu, the virus could mutate and you get sick again. We need more knowledge of the type of IgG our body makes to understand this better.

As I understand most of the vaccines that they talk about, they are directed against part of the virus that if it mutates, it won't cause infection. For example, at least some of the vaccines are against a part of the virus that is needed to attach to a cell. So if that mutates, the virus probably can't infect.

The problem with current antibody testing is that we don't really know what kind of IgG they are measuring. So they may signify prior infection, but they don't tell us that our current antibodies will prevent further infection. However, the fact that pooled serum transfusion seems to help in fighting the infection off, suggests that we do make helpful antibodies. They just don't say if they will fight off a mutated virus. It's for that reason that I suspect that the vaccine will be recommended, even for people who have had an infection.

Time and research will eventually sort this out. For now, and into the foreseeable future, masks will be needed for all.

You'll notice that I've used a lot of unless, usually and probably terms. That's what make biology, and medicine in particular, interesting and fun. Each patient is a little different from the others.

Maybe too long a post for hockey fans, but I hope it helps.

+1

This is what differentiates an Ivy League hockey forum from most others.

[Beeeej]

I'm back. Not to arbitrarily pull us back to virus testing, but since I was mentioned, I'll try and explain this as much as I know it.

As noted Jeff got an antibody test, which says nothing about current infection. It just means that you've had exposure to the virus, or part of the virus if you're dealing with immunization, and your immune system has reacted by making antibodies. Those can sometime be made quickly enough to help a current infection, but are most important in fighting subsequent infections.

During this whole process you generally make 2 types of antibodies, IgM and IgG. IgM is made first and usually only stays around for a limited time, months not years. IgG takes longer to make, but can, and that doesn't mean will, stay around for lifetime. Once your body has learned to make the IgG it can gear up quickly to make more. So it is helpful in fighting further infections.

In regarding the test that Jeff was talking about, I'd assumed that it was an IgG test, and he did then say that. Since it takes time to make IgG, it usually means that the infection was in the past and your body has fought it off. An IgM antibody could be found with an infection that you're currently fighting. So knowing that you have IgG present means you've seen this before, usually not now.

The usefulness of knowing you have IgG could be that you don't have to worry about further infection. Unless the virus mutates into something the IgG no longer recognizes. And that is probably how a few people have been shown to get infected twice. The European virus is different in some ways from the Chinese virus.

So that's the first problem with measuring IgG. Like the flu, the virus could mutate and you get sick again. We need more knowledge of the type of IgG our body makes to understand this better.

As I understand most of the vaccines that they talk about, they are directed against part of the virus that if it mutates, it won't cause infection. For example, at least some of the vaccines are against a part of the virus that is needed to attach to a cell. So if that mutates, the virus probably can't infect.

The problem with current antibody testing is that we don't really know what kind of IgG they are measuring. So they may signify prior infection, but they don't tell us that our current antibodies will prevent further infection. However, the fact that pooled serum transfusion seems to help in fighting the infection off, suggests that we do make helpful antibodies. They just don't say if they will fight off a mutated virus. It's for that reason that I suspect that the vaccine will be recommended, even for people who have had an infection.

Time and research will eventually sort this out. For now, and into the foreseeable future, masks will be needed for all.

You'll notice that I've used a lot of unless, usually and probably terms. That's what make biology, and medicine in particular, interesting and fun. Each patient is a little different from the others.

Maybe too long a post for hockey fans, but I hope it helps.

+1

This is what differentiates an Ivy League hockey forum from most others.

Poopyhead.

[Swampy]

I'm back. Not to arbitrarily pull us back to virus testing, but since I was mentioned, I'll try and explain this as much as I know it.

As noted Jeff got an antibody test, which says nothing about current infection. It just means that you've had exposure to the virus, or part of the virus if you're dealing with immunization, and your immune system has reacted by making antibodies. Those can sometime be made quickly enough to help a current infection, but are most important in fighting subsequent infections.

During this whole process you generally make 2 types of antibodies, IgM and IgG. IgM is made first and usually only stays around for a limited time, months not years. IgG takes longer to make, but can, and that doesn't mean will, stay around for lifetime. Once your body has learned to make the IgG it can gear up quickly to make more. So it is helpful in fighting further infections.

In regarding the test that Jeff was talking about, I'd assumed that it was an IgG test, and he did then say that. Since it takes time to make IgG, it usually means that the infection was in the past and your body has fought it off. An IgM antibody could be found with an infection that you're currently fighting. So knowing that you have IgG present means you've seen this before, usually not now.

The usefulness of knowing you have IgG could be that you don't have to worry about further infection. Unless the virus mutates into something the IgG no longer recognizes. And that is probably how a few people have been shown to get infected twice. The European virus is different in some ways from the Chinese virus.

So that's the first problem with measuring IgG. Like the flu, the virus could mutate and you get sick again. We need more knowledge of the type of IgG our body makes to understand this better.

As I understand most of the vaccines that they talk about, they are directed against part of the virus that if it mutates, it won't cause infection. For example, at least some of the vaccines are against a part of the virus that is needed to attach to a cell. So if that mutates, the virus probably can't infect.

The problem with current antibody testing is that we don't really know what kind of IgG they are measuring. So they may signify prior infection, but they don't tell us that our current antibodies will prevent further infection. However, the fact that pooled serum transfusion seems to help in fighting the infection off, suggests that we do make helpful antibodies. They just don't say if they will fight off a mutated virus. It's for that reason that I suspect that the vaccine will be recommended, even for people who have had an infection.

Time and research will eventually sort this out. For now, and into the foreseeable future, masks will be needed for all.

You'll notice that I've used a lot of unless, usually and probably terms. That's what make biology, and medicine in particular, interesting and fun. Each patient is a little different from the others.

Maybe too long a post for hockey fans, but I hope it helps.

+1

This is what differentiates an Ivy League hockey forum from most others.

Poopyhead.

Boy! Tough crowd. I tried very hard to express appreciation for Jim's explanation and still not sound (too) elitist. And I still get shit!::bang::

[Trotsky]

I for one found your lack of elitism grating.  :-(

[Beeeej]

I'm back. Not to arbitrarily pull us back to virus testing, but since I was mentioned, I'll try and explain this as much as I know it.

As noted Jeff got an antibody test, which says nothing about current infection. It just means that you've had exposure to the virus, or part of the virus if you're dealing with immunization, and your immune system has reacted by making antibodies. Those can sometime be made quickly enough to help a current infection, but are most important in fighting subsequent infections.

During this whole process you generally make 2 types of antibodies, IgM and IgG. IgM is made first and usually only stays around for a limited time, months not years. IgG takes longer to make, but can, and that doesn't mean will, stay around for lifetime. Once your body has learned to make the IgG it can gear up quickly to make more. So it is helpful in fighting further infections.

In regarding the test that Jeff was talking about, I'd assumed that it was an IgG test, and he did then say that. Since it takes time to make IgG, it usually means that the infection was in the past and your body has fought it off. An IgM antibody could be found with an infection that you're currently fighting. So knowing that you have IgG present means you've seen this before, usually not now.

The usefulness of knowing you have IgG could be that you don't have to worry about further infection. Unless the virus mutates into something the IgG no longer recognizes. And that is probably how a few people have been shown to get infected twice. The European virus is different in some ways from the Chinese virus.

So that's the first problem with measuring IgG. Like the flu, the virus could mutate and you get sick again. We need more knowledge of the type of IgG our body makes to understand this better.

As I understand most of the vaccines that they talk about, they are directed against part of the virus that if it mutates, it won't cause infection. For example, at least some of the vaccines are against a part of the virus that is needed to attach to a cell. So if that mutates, the virus probably can't infect.

The problem with current antibody testing is that we don't really know what kind of IgG they are measuring. So they may signify prior infection, but they don't tell us that our current antibodies will prevent further infection. However, the fact that pooled serum transfusion seems to help in fighting the infection off, suggests that we do make helpful antibodies. They just don't say if they will fight off a mutated virus. It's for that reason that I suspect that the vaccine will be recommended, even for people who have had an infection.

Time and research will eventually sort this out. For now, and into the foreseeable future, masks will be needed for all.

You'll notice that I've used a lot of unless, usually and probably terms. That's what make biology, and medicine in particular, interesting and fun. Each patient is a little different from the others.

Maybe too long a post for hockey fans, but I hope it helps.

+1

This is what differentiates an Ivy League hockey forum from most others.

Poopyhead.

Boy! Tough crowd. I tried very hard to express appreciation for Jim's explanation and still not sound (too) elitist. And I still get shit!::bang::

Just in case it wasn't clear, I was kidding. I deeply appreciated both Jim's explanation and your point that this wouldn't happen on most sports fora.