Time for a New Arena thread

[BearLover]

The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins.  The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip.  It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad.  That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

No!  Why do people keep saying this?  The fans have been getting steadily less rowdy since 2006.  In 2011-12 (NCAA year) the fans were worse than in 2007-08 (mediocre year).  Winning has something to do with it, but nowhere near everything to do with it.  I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

[KeithK]

The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins.  The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip.  It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad.  That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

No!  Why do people keep saying this?  The fans have been getting steadily less rowdy since 2006.  In 2011-12 (NCAA year) the fans were worse than in 2007-08 (mediocre year).  Winning has something to do with it, but nowhere near everything to do with it.  I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

It's safe to say that winning helps but I agree it's probably not everything. I'm not convinced that it's ticket prices, as some suggest, but lower prices certainly would help too.  A more permissive environent would IMO help.  But maybe students are just less interested in going to sporting events.  If that's the case then I don't know if you can do anything.  (Except maybe set off a nice EMP to blow out all the connected devices... sadly we probably couldn't get approval for that...)

[Greenberg '97]

(Except maybe set off a nice EMP to blow out all the connected devices... sadly we probably couldn't get approval for that...)

Approval?  No one got approval to tie a chicken to the goalposts, and look where that's gotten us.

[Trotsky]

I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right.  I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity.  This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse.  This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose.  The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans.  That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist.  That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time.  Again, bad team, bad experience.  Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too.  In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s.  Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

[BearLover]

I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right.  I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity.  This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse.  This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose.  The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans.  That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist.  That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time.  Again, bad team, bad experience.  Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too.  In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s.  Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

I know for a fact that many of my friends were unwilling to buy season tickets because of the price, even though they loved any chance they got to attend a game.  I know for a fact that fraternity and sorority attendance at the games is down--I have a hard time believing this has to do with winning percentage more than ability to be drunk and rowdy.  Most of all, I know that nearly all freshmen had absolutely no idea what the team's record was the year before.  

I saw the decline with my own eyes while I was a student a few years back--the students got a bit tardier and quieter every season, even though the team was similarly successful each year.  This trend continued when I went back as an alum.  

Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fncd5RP1d_8

[Dafatone]

I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right.  I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity.  This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse.  This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose.  The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans.  That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist.  That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time.  Again, bad team, bad experience.  Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too.  In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s.  Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

I know for a fact that many of my friends were unwilling to buy season tickets because of the price, even though they loved any chance they got to attend a game.  I know for a fact that fraternity and sorority attendance at the games is down--I have a hard time believing this has to do with winning percentage more than ability to be drunk and rowdy.  Most of all, I know that nearly all freshmen had absolutely no idea what the team's record was the year before.  

I saw the decline with my own eyes while I was a student a few years back--the students got a bit tardier and quieter every season, even though the team was similarly successful each year.  This trend continued when I went back as an alum.  

Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fncd5RP1d_8

I think you're both right (way to make a lame cop-out, me!).  Attendance IS down.  We've had down periods before.  We'll have down periods again.  This isn't a phenomenon only specific to right now.  But at the same time, my understanding of basic economics says that high prices only make sense when you're selling out.  And I've been whining for nearly a decade that the atmosphere in Lynah lost something starting in 06-07.

[Trotsky]

Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fncd5RP1d_8

How does this conflict with the premise that the crowd sucks when the team sucks?

The freshmen get their knowledge and enthusiasm for the hockey team from the upper classmen -- virtually nobody arrives on campus having even heard of college hockey -- and that varies directly with the team's fortunes.

I can't speak to the prices, though I do remember people bitching about them even when I was a student back in the Mesozoic Era.  I absolutely agree there should be a steep discount for seasons; I've always thought exhibition and playoff tickets should be free for season ticket holders (they actually did this once by using the ticket booklet as a pass).

[upprdeck]

cornell controls ticket prices but not for the play off games. thats ECAC money.

there are multiple issues inplay here.  some people want the nastalgia to live forever and I get that. if you ask the townies they want lower prices, more winning and better amenities. Hard to say what current students want, and alumns who come back for games probably want different things than alums who belong to this board.

All I know is having seen RIT and Oswego, lynah is a pit and I dont think you can dispute the level of talent we are getting here is down , a new building isnt going to make that worse and it might help.  its much easier to keep ticket prices high if you show someone some things that make them happy about being there.. we can only control the winning so much, but you can make it more enjoyable.   You cant even do things that get the crowd excited like the Forum does in montreal with the lack of equipment we have here..

[Swampy]

I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right.  I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity.  This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse.  This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose.  The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans.  That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist.  That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time.  Again, bad team, bad experience.  Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too.  In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s.  Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

From your keyboard to God's ears.

[Rosey]

To whomever said that "new rinks are like office buildings" is a garbage generalization, simply put - you're wrong.

Ok, bud: killer argument there.

In all seriousness, I'm not actually advocating for Lynah to be torn down: if you were paying attention, you know I was also the person who said that Lynah is not Cornell hockey's problem. But this worship of mediocre spaces is just dumb. (I'm an equal opportunity bullshit-caller.) Cornell hockey isn't Lynah, and Lynah isn't Cornell hockey. Cornell hockey will have either a resurgent or a dying tradition for many reasons, and the precise physical condition of the rink they play in, as experienced by the fans, is one of the least important of those reasons. Recruiting, coaching, fan enjoyment of the entire experience (e.g., not having the ushers all up in your shit every time you open your mouth), price and competition with other avenues of entertainment, and most of all *winning*, are way more important.

[Swampy]

Here's a version of Swampy's Law of demand for attending hockey games:

      D = Y_D(d) x P(d) x I(d,w, A, S) / d²

Where:

      D is demand for attending hockey games,

      Y_D(d) is disposable income as a (nonlinear?) function of distance from the arena,

      P(d) is population density as a (nonlinear) function of distance from the arena,

      I(d,w,A,S) is fan interest as a function of distance, team winning %, Alumnus status, and Student status (i.e. being a current or prospective student or being a parent of one), and

      d is distance from the arena (ala Newton).

The P(d) term by itself indicates a natural advantage places like RIT have. The Y_D term may indicate something about the economy recently, although Ithaca itself probably does better than Rochester on this score, until you get away from the ten square miles and into the surrounding reality. I do think the coefficient for the w term is very high.

[Trotsky]

Here's a version of Swampy's Law of demand for attending hockey games:

      D = Y_D(d) x P(d) x I(d,w, A, S) / d²

Where:

      D is demand for attending hockey games,

      Y_D(d) is disposable income as a (nonlinear?) function of distance from the arena,

      P(d) is population density as a (nonlinear) function of distance from the arena,

      I(d,w,A,S) is fan interest as a function of distance, team winning %, Alumnus status, and Student status (i.e. being a current or prospective student or being a parent of one), and

      d is distance from the arena (ala Newton).

The P(d) term by itself indicates a natural advantage places like RIT have. The Y_D term may indicate something about the economy recently, although Ithaca itself probably does better than Rochester on this score, until you get away from the ten square miles and into the surrounding reality. I do think the coefficient for the w term is very high.

Did you really just try to model hockey fandom without introducing a variable for alcohol?

Well, I suppose you could argue it's a constant.

[Trotsky]

But this worship of mediocre spaces is just dumb.

The worship of mediocre spaces is what explains the aesthetic appeal of almost everything old.  Fenway is a dump, and it was a dump in 1980 and 1960 and 1940.  But the aging of a dump gives it charm, as long as it isn't in Uniondale.  Hell, even Shea felt wonderful at the end.

I admit that what I want is not to wreck the Lynah experience, and while that doesn't require Lynah itself, it does require staying away from the braying banality of modernity.  Large scoreboards, piped-in music, and advertising filling every available nook has pretty much destroyed the entire world.  Lynah is a place that has so far mostly escaped it.  That is worth preserving.  Someday, if humans become smarter (unlikely) or we slip the choke collar of commerce (more unlikely), there will be less risk of exchanging Lynah for a different atmosphere.  But currently the atmospheres on offer from new facilities are ghastly, and anything beating against that current is worth preserving.

[Jim Hyla]

Okay here I go.

Do people really believe that the reason we don't get students is because they can't come drunk and say F**k you ref? Really? Do you think that's the reason why those of us who started the tradition of rowdy Cornell fans came to Lynah in the first place?

No, Cornell fans got their reputation because they loved beating those other hockey schools, mainly those in Boston, and liked to make a lot of noise doing it. Yes, there were some off color cheers, "The ref f**ks sheep" was a good example. But that was a tiny minority of the volume. We owned the Boston Garden, just like we own Lynah East. We won there most of the time, but even if we didn't win, we were loud. Boston fans hated us, but the Garden and local facilities loved that we brought the crowds. Just look at my signature, would any newspaper write that about us today? (Say nothing of the fact that most reporters today probably couldn't come up with the phrase.)

I've been here forever, am a townie, sort of, and could care less about the so called amenities. I bring friends who go to other events in much more elaborate facilities, and almost universally, they've had fun when Lynah was rocking. They didn't mind that there weren't cup holders and would gladly rise when the students yelled "Townies up." No the facility isn't what has made the atmosphere, the people have made the atmosphere, mainly the students.

As for attendance, I don't think the townie side has dropped off nearly as much as the student side. I don't think you're going to get more to come because they have cupholders. Sorry to overuse that example. Get a team that wins, and has a chance in every game, and restart some student noise, and the "adults" will show up.

So for me, if we were to have the amount of money needed to build one of those "new" facilities, with all the trimmings, we'd be a lot better off spending the money to subsidize the student ticket prices, and letting them in for a nominal charge. So if you really think you know that special donor who wants his name on that shiny new building, ask him to buy their tickets, so they can walk into Lynah through the GEORGE P DONOR SUBSIDIZED STUDENT ENTRANCE.

The ticket prices for students are too high, plain and simple. And maybe students really are different today, that I can't speak to.

[upprdeck]

has anyone actually looked at student prices compared to other schools to say they are too high?  the avg family income for a cornell student is higher than RIt. I agree prices are high, but still they are a bargain.