Frozen Four

[billhoward]

One last curiosity: All four NCAA hockey champions are NCAA Division-III schools.

D1 Men:    Union
D1 Women:  Clarkson
D3 Men:    St. Norbert's
D3 Women:  SUNY-Plattsburg

A billhoward "If Only" special: If Only SUNY-Geneseo or SUNY-Oswego had found a way to win the D3 Men's FF (both lost their semi-final), that would have been a clean sweep for New York.

How'd I miss that? Good catch.

[Towerroad]

Time for a roast: I've taken a lot of shots at Union through the years. It drove me nuts when they were the league bottom-feeders, and still took points from good Cornell teams. I shouted loudly on this forum many times that the ECAC should trade them for RIT. I take some of those instances back, I guess.

There were more Union fans in their corner of the Wells Fargo Center than can fit in their dumpy home arena. I don't know if the TV broadcast picked up on it, but the North Dakota fans were actively leading Union cheers at times. Since Union's style of cheering is usually to wait for opposing fans to start a cheer and then scream "U!" over it, it was amusing to hear the "Let's Go Gophers" cheer try to cover theirs up for once.

The Union Band did OK, considering that before 2010, the "Union Band" consisted of overweight locals shaking milk jugs full of pennies. It seems their band settled on playing Cee Lo's "Fuck You" as their penalty song...I point this out because Cornell's band (at least in the past) has been told that they are forbidden from playing it.  

Given that North Dakota and Minnesota brought their cheerleaders, it's too bad Union didn't send out their own cheerleading squad: 12 year-olds running around calling everybody else "gay."

And I can't say I've ever seen the "U" hand-signal that was omni-present during the final. I hate to think how many times that's going to get waved in my face every time I visit Achilles just for wearing a shirt with my school's name on it.

But OK, OK. Congratulations to them.  I hated to be happy for them, but I was.  And I really liked the moment the RPI AD (serving as the NCAA Hockey Committee Chair) had to hand over the National Championship trophy to a Capital District rival. I guess this success cements Union as the SLU to RPI's Clarkson.  I'll

Since I just missed the UConn "dual champions" parade past my home in Hartford (darn it all), it hit me that Minnesota should have a parade through Dinkytown marking the fact that they are "Dual Runners-Up" having lost both hockey finals to two small Upstate NY schools.  "State of 2nd Place Hockey!"

One last curiosity: All four NCAA hockey champions are NCAA Division-III schools.

D1 Men:    Union
D1 Women:  Clarkson
D3 Men:    St. Norbert's
D3 Women:  SUNY-Plattsburg

A billhoward "If Only" special: If Only SUNY-Geneseo or SUNY-Oswego had found a way to win the D3 Men's FF (both lost their semi-final), that would have been a clean sweep for New York.

Don't ever offer a toast at a wedding.

[billhoward]

Don't ever offer a toast at a wedding.

Too late. I did a remote eulogy for Percy Shore, ECAC referee in the 1970s on the occasion his posthumous induction into the Ontario Jewish Athletes Hall of Fame. His grandson, upon cold-calling, had to reassure me of what everyone wonders about, that there really is OJAHOF and Percy wasn't the first inductee. R.I.P., Percy and all the other guys who were believed blind as bats when they called the plays at Lynah and only later do you appreciate there's a huge supporting cast of refs, timekeepers, managers and etcetera making college hockey so entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo4CoL3iPHA

[judy]

And I can't say I've ever seen the "U" hand-signal that was omni-present during the final. I hate to think how many times that's going to get waved in my face every time I visit Achilles just for wearing a shirt with my school's name on it.

I haven't seen Union in years before the Frozen Four tonight but I could have sworn the first time I saw that hand gesture was the night of the final, on the big screen, by North Dakota fans.

[KGR11]

Time for a roast: I've taken a lot of shots at Union through the years. It drove me nuts when they were the league bottom-feeders, and still took points from good Cornell teams. I shouted loudly on this forum many times that the ECAC should trade them for RIT. I take some of those instances back, I guess.

There were more Union fans in their corner of the Wells Fargo Center than can fit in their dumpy home arena. I don't know if the TV broadcast picked up on it, but the North Dakota fans were actively leading Union cheers at times. Since Union's style of cheering is usually to wait for opposing fans to start a cheer and then scream "U!" over it, it was amusing to hear the "Let's Go Gophers" cheer try to cover theirs up for once.

The Union Band did OK, considering that before 2010, the "Union Band" consisted of overweight locals shaking milk jugs full of pennies. It seems their band settled on playing Cee Lo's "Fuck You" as their penalty song...I point this out because Cornell's band (at least in the past) has been told that they are forbidden from playing it.  

Given that North Dakota and Minnesota brought their cheerleaders, it's too bad Union didn't send out their own cheerleading squad: 12 year-olds running around calling everybody else "gay."

And I can't say I've ever seen the "U" hand-signal that was omni-present during the final. I hate to think how many times that's going to get waved in my face every time I visit Achilles just for wearing a shirt with my school's name on it.

But OK, OK. Congratulations to them.  I hated to be happy for them, but I was.  And I really liked the moment the RPI AD (serving as the NCAA Hockey Committee Chair) had to hand over the National Championship trophy to a Capital District rival. I guess this success cements Union as the SLU to RPI's Clarkson.  I'll

Since I just missed the UConn "dual champions" parade past my home in Hartford (darn it all), it hit me that Minnesota should have a parade through Dinkytown marking the fact that they are "Dual Runners-Up" having lost both hockey finals to two small Upstate NY schools.  "State of 2nd Place Hockey!"

One last curiosity: All four NCAA hockey champions are NCAA Division-III schools.

D1 Men:    Union
D1 Women:  Clarkson
D3 Men:    St. Norbert's
D3 Women:  SUNY-Plattsburg

A billhoward "If Only" special: If Only SUNY-Geneseo or SUNY-Oswego had found a way to win the D3 Men's FF (both lost their semi-final), that would have been a clean sweep for New York.

On TV it looked like the Union band was larger than they usually have at home games. Any idea how many were there? I was wondering whether they had some alumni added to the students.

Does anyone know if the Union band was actually comprised of Union students/alums?  In Bridgeport this year and in 2012, the Sacred Heart Pep Band filled in as the Union Pep Band.  I'm wondering if they did the same for the Frozen Four.

[imafrshmn]

The plus-seven rating for Gostisbehere is erroneous. He is clearly on the ice for Minny's 4th goal.

[RichH]

Don't ever offer a toast at a wedding.

I guess it's good that I said "roast," then.

[gonyr]

The plus-seven rating for Gostisbehere is erroneous. He is clearly on the ice for Minny's 4th goal.

Minnesota's 4th was on the power play. Doesn't count as a minus.

[BearLover]

No.  There are obvious benefits from Union winning.  These benefits are vastly outweighed by the negatives.

I'll give it one more shot.

At least 3 of the top 4 teams in the Frozen Four will always be Someones Other Than (SOTs) us.  The question is: are we better served by having SOTs come from the ECAC (ESOTs)?

If I understand the arguments against, they are:

Zero Sum: ESOTs disproportionately draw top prospects from Cornell because ECAC teams more closely match Cornell's recruiting profile

Ya Gotta Be In It To Win It: ESOTs imply a lower probability of Cornell getting the AQ, thus lowering our chances of making the tourney at all

The rebuttals are:

Contra Zero Sum: ESOTs raise the credibility of the league, so while Cornell attracts a lower percentage of the ECAC's quality recruits they draw from a larger pool of national recruits (as prospects who were formerly warned off the ECAC are no longer), hence they still get a higher number of quality prospects overall

Contra YGBIITWI: ESOTs raise Cornell's RPICH, so while Cornell gets fewer AQs, they get more and better At Large bids and hence more and better chances to win it all


Absent any real analysis of these assumptions and arguments, it just comes down to personal opinion.  One statistic I will cite is despite being the dominant program in the ECAC from 1996 through 2010, we never won a national title.  The new reality of a multipolar but stronger ECAC that dates from 2011 is just 4 years old.  If we fail to win a title for the next 11 years, the results will then be... equal.

Here's a bonus argument.  There seems to be a high overlap of people holding Root for the ECAC To Lose and people who are, shall we say, underwhelmed by The System.  Well, when Cornell was dominant in the conference there was no incentive for Schafer to change what was working.  The success of Yale's firewagon hockey and Union's balance of good offense with good defense with no overt preference for either is a daily reminder that there are other ways to win that may be better tailored to the evolution of the game -- ways that are paying off in the most tangible reward possible.  Whether you love Schafer but wish he would change, or you hate Schafer and wish Andy would see the light, that new reality can only help your case.

This is a good summary of the arguments.  But I know you're smart enough to know that National Titles Won is a poor metric of actual success, even if that is the ultimate goal.  Yale has not been a better team than Michigan over the past 11 years.  Furthermore, I am a sports fan--I want my team to win, I want my rivals to lose, and I want Cornell to be ECAC Champion as much as it can.  

The bottom line is that Cornell has a worse chance of finishing at the top of the league, a worse chance of winning the ECAC, and a worse chance of qualifying for the NCAA's than it did ten years ago, and the biggest reason is the better competition.

[Trotsky]

National Titles Won is a poor metric of actual success, even if that is the ultimate goal.

That's fair.  The better metric is number and quality of bids.  So far the new environment is not good for us, but it's a SSS so far.

Furthermore, I am a sports fan--I want my team to win, I want my rivals to lose

I assume I'm in the minority but I couldn't care less about what a rival does.  I'm a Mets fan and I couldn't care less about the Yankees.  I'm an Islanders fan and, in addition to being inconsolably sad, I wish nothing ill to the Rangers, in fact I even kind of like them.  I understand this is a minority view because I see this behavior all the time, but I just don't give a flying fuck about anybody* but my team.

I want Cornell to be ECAC Champion as much as it can.

No argument there.  We used to have a Perennial Question about which you'd prefer: Cornell winning the ECACs but failing to make the Frozen Four, or vice versa.  I think I may have been the only one who would take the hardware.

* Except the Braves.  The Braves can go die in a fire.  But that's not rivalry, it's a sense of moral goodness.  For example, I couldn't care less about the Phillies.

[Chris '03]

The bottom line is that Cornell has a worse chance of finishing at the top of the league, a worse chance of winning the ECAC, and a worse chance of qualifying for the NCAA's than it did ten years ago, and the biggest reason is the better competition.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. The increased strength of the ECAC overall has increased the margin of error for an ECAC team to get an at large bid. Yale got in last year on the back of a stronger ECAC. A few years ago, their semifinal loss would have ended the season. Last year, they got a bid. This year, the ECAC was one or two results away from putting four teams in.


ECAC bids by year:
'04 - 1
'05 - 3
'06 - 2
'07 - 2
'08 - 2
'09 - 3
'10 - 2
'11 - 3
'12 - 2
'13 - 3
'14 - 3

Average bids '04-'09 = 2.16. Average bids '10-'14 = 2.6.  


For years, fans bemoaned Cornell's SOS because of their weak conference and questioned their readiness to play the big boys in March.  Now we're finally in a conference that produces national champions. Yeah it burns me that now two other schools got there before Cornell did but I'm also glad to know that Cornell doesn't play in the JV anymore. It is harder to win the conference championship but that also means it should create more opportunity for a strong league to send more teams to the tournament.*

*- Admittedly, the increase in autobids may neutralize this effect as fewer at large bids are now available.

[RatushnyFan]

So you're not going to name your son Chipper?

5 edits?

I have more questions.

[BearLover]

The bottom line is that Cornell has a worse chance of finishing at the top of the league, a worse chance of winning the ECAC, and a worse chance of qualifying for the NCAA's than it did ten years ago, and the biggest reason is the better competition.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. The increased strength of the ECAC overall has increased the margin of error for an ECAC team to get an at large bid. Yale got in last year on the back of a stronger ECAC. A few years ago, their semifinal loss would have ended the season. Last year, they got a bid. This year, the ECAC was one or two results away from putting four teams in.


ECAC bids by year:
'04 - 1
'05 - 3
'06 - 2
'07 - 2
'08 - 2
'09 - 3
'10 - 2
'11 - 3
'12 - 2
'13 - 3
'14 - 3

Average bids '04-'09 = 2.16. Average bids '10-'14 = 2.6.  


For years, fans bemoaned Cornell's SOS because of their weak conference and questioned their readiness to play the big boys in March.  Now we're finally in a conference that produces national champions. Yeah it burns me that now two other schools got there before Cornell did but I'm also glad to know that Cornell doesn't play in the JV anymore. It is harder to win the conference championship but that also means it should create more opportunity for a strong league to send more teams to the tournament.*

*- Admittedly, the increase in autobids may neutralize this effect as fewer at large bids are now available.

But .44 extra bids surely doesn't make up for the fact that Cornell is competing for those bids against considerably stronger teams than it did in '04-'09.

[RichH]

The bottom line is that Cornell has a worse chance of finishing at the top of the league, a worse chance of winning the ECAC, and a worse chance of qualifying for the NCAA's than it did ten years ago, and the biggest reason is the better competition.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. The increased strength of the ECAC overall has increased the margin of error for an ECAC team to get an at large bid. Yale got in last year on the back of a stronger ECAC. A few years ago, their semifinal loss would have ended the season. Last year, they got a bid. This year, the ECAC was one or two results away from putting four teams in.


ECAC bids by year:
'04 - 1
'05 - 3
'06 - 2
'07 - 2
'08 - 2
'09 - 3
'10 - 2
'11 - 3
'12 - 2
'13 - 3
'14 - 3

Average bids '04-'09 = 2.16. Average bids '10-'14 = 2.6.  


For years, fans bemoaned Cornell's SOS because of their weak conference and questioned their readiness to play the big boys in March.  Now we're finally in a conference that produces national champions. Yeah it burns me that now two other schools got there before Cornell did but I'm also glad to know that Cornell doesn't play in the JV anymore. It is harder to win the conference championship but that also means it should create more opportunity for a strong league to send more teams to the tournament.*

*- Admittedly, the increase in autobids may neutralize this effect as fewer at large bids are now available.

But .44 extra bids surely doesn't make up for the fact that Cornell is competing for those bids with considerably stronger teams than it did in '04-'09.

If a weak league is to Cornell's advantage, like you say, then it would make sense to move to Atlantic Hockey. Cornell could expect to take that auto-bid more often than the ECAC's. They would also get fat off of playing Canisius and Sacred Heart, and not see tournament-caliber teams for several months.  Playing against strong competition down the stretch cuts teeth.  Eventually, Cornell would lose out on even more recruits.

Vermont improved their program by moving to a stronger league.  Quinnipiac improved their program by moving to a stronger league. Playing in a strong league is a Good Thing. For everything from seeing better competition to improving at-large bid odds.

[KeithK]

Furthermore, I am a sports fan--I want my team to win, I want my rivals to lose

I assume I'm in the minority but I couldn't care less about what a rival does.  I'm a Mets fan and I couldn't care less about the Yankees.  I'm an Islanders fan and, in addition to being inconsolably sad, I wish nothing ill to the Rangers, in fact I even kind of like them.  I understand this is a minority view because I see this behavior all the time, but I just don't give a flying fuck about anybody* but my team.

I used to care strongly about seeing my rivals lose. But over the years I've managed to mostly let that go. And I think I'm happier for it.  I suffer enough when my teams lose. I don't need to suffer more because someone else wins. The schadenfreude when they lose just doesn't balance it out.