Frozen Four

[Trotsky]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

[marty]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

[Rita]

Root for the ECAC to Lose

I LOLed. I think that distillation pretty much sums it up.

I'm rooting for an ice malfunction that swallows up both Union and Minnesota. Ugh. In my warped mind, North Dakota was the most palatable team to root for. Oh well.

[BearLover]

Somebody want to explain to me how, if Union wins, it will help Cornell? I'm sure there is some obscure reasoning.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to find, it's in pretty much every thread mentioning the tourney the last few years.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to follow, sorry, can't help you.

You're right, I apologize. I should have used the word "convoluted" in my statement and not obscure.

I was more interested in how the spinners would make Union winning a NCAA championship into a "win" for CU.

It's not a win for CU.  It's a massive fucking loss.  People on here can be as stubborn as they wish, but the reality is that Cornell lost recruits this year to ECAC programs they never would have in the past, and would have made the NCAA's if Union were as good as it was in 2009.

[ugarte]

Somebody want to explain to me how, if Union wins, it will help Cornell? I'm sure there is some obscure reasoning.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to find, it's in pretty much every thread mentioning the tourney the last few years.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to follow, sorry, can't help you.

You're right, I apologize. I should have used the word "convoluted" in my statement and not obscure.

I was more interested in how the spinners would make Union winning a NCAA championship into a "win" for CU.

I only see things through a zero-sum prism.

YEAH, WE KNOW.

[BearLover]

Somebody want to explain to me how, if Union wins, it will help Cornell? I'm sure there is some obscure reasoning.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to find, it's in pretty much every thread mentioning the tourney the last few years.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to follow, sorry, can't help you.

You're right, I apologize. I should have used the word "convoluted" in my statement and not obscure.

I was more interested in how the spinners would make Union winning a NCAA championship into a "win" for CU.

I only see things through a zero-sum prism.

YEAH, WE KNOW.

No.  There are obvious benefits from Union winning.  These benefits are vastly outweighed by the negatives.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

Somebody want to explain to me how, if Union wins, it will help Cornell? I'm sure there is some obscure reasoning.

I nominate this argument for Worst Topic.

Anyone able to come up with a challenger?

Is there an "I love Harvard" thread anywhere?

Then, no.

[Trotsky]

No.  There are obvious benefits from Union winning.  These benefits are vastly outweighed by the negatives.

I'll give it one more shot.

At least 3 of the top 4 teams in the Frozen Four will always be Someones Other Than (SOTs) us.  The question is: are we better served by having SOTs come from the ECAC (ESOTs)?

If I understand the arguments against, they are:

Zero Sum: ESOTs disproportionately draw top prospects from Cornell because ECAC teams more closely match Cornell's recruiting profile

Ya Gotta Be In It To Win It: ESOTs imply a lower probability of Cornell getting the AQ, thus lowering our chances of making the tourney at all

The rebuttals are:

Contra Zero Sum: ESOTs raise the credibility of the league, so while Cornell attracts a lower percentage of the ECAC's quality recruits they draw from a larger pool of national recruits (as prospects who were formerly warned off the ECAC are no longer), hence they still get a higher number of quality prospects overall

Contra YGBIITWI: ESOTs raise Cornell's RPICH, so while Cornell gets fewer AQs, they get more and better At Large bids and hence more and better chances to win it all


Absent any real analysis of these assumptions and arguments, it just comes down to personal opinion.  One statistic I will cite is despite being the dominant program in the ECAC from 1996 through 2010, we never won a national title.  The new reality of a multipolar but stronger ECAC that dates from 2011 is just 4 years old.  If we fail to win a title for the next 11 years, the results will then be... equal.

Here's a bonus argument.  There seems to be a high overlap of people holding Root for the ECAC To Lose and people who are, shall we say, underwhelmed by The System.  Well, when Cornell was dominant in the conference there was no incentive for Schafer to change what was working.  The success of Yale's firewagon hockey and Union's balance of good offense with good defense with no overt preference for either is a daily reminder that there are other ways to win that may be better tailored to the evolution of the game -- ways that are paying off in the most tangible reward possible.  Whether you love Schafer but wish he would change, or you hate Schafer and wish Andy would see the light, that new reality can only help your case.

[Dafatone]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

We're the good guys.  I'm not sure who the bad guys are, but anyone connected to Ralph Englestad is one of them.  So on a sort of cosmic level, it's a victory for our side?

[scoop85]

Somebody want to explain to me how, if Union wins, it will help Cornell? I'm sure there is some obscure reasoning.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to find, it's in pretty much every thread mentioning the tourney the last few years.

If by obscure you mean it's been hard for you to follow, sorry, can't help you.

You're right, I apologize. I should have used the word "convoluted" in my statement and not obscure.

I was more interested in how the spinners would make Union winning a NCAA championship into a "win" for CU.

I only see things through a zero-sum prism.

YEAH, WE KNOW.

No.  There are obvious benefits from Union winning.  These benefits are vastly outweighed by the negatives.

Here's my take: For years the final four was dominated by the WCHA and Hockey East, and throw in Michigan. While the pool of teams was small, it wasn't limited to just one or two teams.  Sometimes it was North Dakota, or Minny, or Denver, or Michigan, or BC, or BU, or Maine, or UNH, etc.  The fact that in a particular year North Dakota would win the title didn't mean that  other top programs couldn't recruit or compete against them.  

I think recruits who can play at a top level don't base their decision on who happened to win the title that particular year.  They just want to go to a program that competes at the highest level, and if your conference has teams that consistently make it to the highest level, the recruits who would consider your school would find that attractive. Of course the programs that win the big prize will have a bit of a leg up, but so long as you have coaches who can recruit effectively, I think the positives of having championship caliber teams in your conference outweigh the negatives.  If given our history, fan support (whether that's waning is a separate conversation), and our ability to consistently compete, we can't recruit enough talented guys to have a reasonable shot year-to-year, then we have to take a hard look at either the coaches, admissions, or both.

[Jim Hyla]

No.  There are obvious benefits from Union winning.  These benefits are vastly outweighed by the negatives.

I'll give it one more shot.

At least 3 of the top 4 teams in the Frozen Four will always be Someones Other Than (SOTs) us.  The question is: are we better served by having SOTs come from the ECAC (ESOTs)?

If I understand the arguments against, they are:

Zero Sum: ESOTs disproportionately draw top prospects from Cornell because ECAC teams more closely match Cornell's recruiting profile

Ya Gotta Be In It To Win It: ESOTs imply a lower probability of Cornell getting the AQ, thus lowering our chances of making the tourney at all

The rebuttals are:

Contra Zero Sum: ESOTs raise the credibility of the league, so while Cornell attracts a lower percentage of the ECAC's quality recruits they draw from a larger pool of national recruits (as prospects who were formerly warned off the ECAC are no longer), hence they still get a higher number of quality prospects overall

Contra YGBIITWI: ESOTs raise Cornell's RPICH, so while Cornell gets fewer AQs, they get more and better At Large bids and hence more and better chances to win it all


Absent any real analysis of these assumptions and arguments, it just comes down to personal opinion.  One statistic I will cite is despite being the dominant program in the ECAC from 1996 through 2010, we never won a national title.  The new reality of a multipolar but stronger ECAC that dates from 2011 is just 4 years old.  If we fail to win a title for the next 11 years, the results will then be... equal.

Here's a bonus argument.  There seems to be a high overlap of people holding Root for the ECAC To Lose and people who are, shall we say, underwhelmed by The System.  Well, when Cornell was dominant in the conference there was no incentive for Schafer to change what was working.  The success of Yale's firewagon hockey and Union's balance of good offense with good defense with no overt preference for either is a daily reminder that there are other ways to win that may be better tailored to the evolution of the game -- ways that are paying off in the most tangible reward possible.  Whether you love Schafer but wish he would change, or you hate Schafer and wish Andy would see the light, that new reality can only help your case.

This is the real argument. We can all hope Schafer learns, from these two years, that he needs to revamp his offense.

[billhoward]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

ECAC is a wimpy league in the eyes of many. Not so much with 2013 finalists Yale and Q, and now Union in 2014. Union will pull some players away from Cornell but Mike Schafer will also find a larger pool of players who'll consider the ECAC schools including Cornell. Not everyone wants to attend a small New York State school in the snowbelt when they can attend a large NYS school in the snowbelt with 4000 not 2000 rabid fans, more academic majors, a unique football tradition, and spring lacrosse to watch.

[edit add:] For those who want to see more of a skating not body checking Cornell team, Union's win provides ammunition.

[Towerroad]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

ECAC is a wimpy league in the eyes of many. Not so much with 2013 finalists Yale and Q, and now Union i 2014. Union will pull some players away from Cornell but Mike Schafer will also find a larger pool of players who'll consider the ECAC schools including Cornell. Not everyone wants to attend a small New York State school in the snowbelt when they can attend a large NYS school in the snowbelt with 4000 not 2000 rabid fans, more academic majors, a unique football tradition, and spring lacrosse to watch.

Don't forget the best ice cream in the ivy league.

[Swampy]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

ECAC is a wimpy league in the eyes of many. Not so much with 2013 finalists Yale and Q, and now Union i 2014. Union will pull some players away from Cornell but Mike Schafer will also find a larger pool of players who'll consider the ECAC schools including Cornell. Not everyone wants to attend a small New York State school in the snowbelt when they can attend a large NYS school in the snowbelt with 4000 not 2000 rabid fans, more academic majors, a unique football tradition, and spring lacrosse to watch.

+1 ::rolleyes::

Not to mention a basketball tradition that is following in football's footsteps, displaced by about 50 years.

[marty]

Two very exciting final minutes tonight.  Minny scores shorthanded with .6 seconds left to beat NoDak 2-1.

Can someone explain how this helps Cornell?

ECAC is a wimpy league in the eyes of many. Not so much with 2013 finalists Yale and Q, and now Union i 2014. Union will pull some players away from Cornell but Mike Schafer will also find a larger pool of players who'll consider the ECAC schools including Cornell. Not everyone wants to attend a small New York State school in the snowbelt when they can attend a large NYS school in the snowbelt with 4000 not 2000 rabid fans, more academic majors, a unique football tradition, and spring lacrosse to watch.

I have to apologize for that post as it was made from my tablet.  I didn't add the emoticon appropriate to my gratuitous shot at all the anti-ECAC whiners.

Here you go:

::rolleyes::