The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?

[Jim Hyla]

Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA? Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships? Yes, I know that Yale hasn't played as many games and can move up the ladder, but...

Now it can be argued that, with their tuition policy, HYP give scholarships, but with the possible exception of Yale, it seems increasingly difficult for the Ivy League teams to keep up. You can also argue that it is early in the season and the Ivy League starts later than the other schools.  However, does that mean that they are really starting behind and it's increasingly difficult to catch up?

Personally, I think the Ivy League has to allow earlier games. But will that be enough? Should we only play other Ivies for the first month? I don't know the answer, but I think there is a problem.

[Trotsky]

> Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA?

No.  For goodness sake, Yale just won the NCAAs last year.

> Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships?

Yes, it's just a fluke.  Also, I thought Union did not give athletic scholarships.


The Ivies should conform to ECAC rules for number of games, earliest practices and games, etc.  There should be no distinct "Ivy" sub-entity within the ECAC when it comes to those operational rules.

Cornell should also get in line with HYP on grants for all but the wealthiest students, but that's a larger social issue.

Never relax academic standards.  If anything, increase them.  If that affects competitiveness, so be it.  We are not Quinnipiac.

Never replace Lynah with an anonymous corporate arena, particularly since Ag students are adroit with ammonium nitrate.

[Rosey]

I think the athletic scholarship thing is a red herring. The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.

[Trotsky]

I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.

That's what I was trying to get at.  If they eliminate the games limit and academics suffers, then OK, go back to limiting the games.  But at the moment it smacks of a solution in search of a problem.  And if they were serious they would, say, limit Architecture majors to 12 games.  (Pat Heaphy, IIRC?)

Unless the games limit is something the athletes and coaches want.  If so, they should know.  But my impression is it's something that well-meaning ADs and schools administrators have levied on them.

[gomestar]

The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

I'd guess that this pool is very limited for hockey players.  It's a really expensive sport to play both in terms of equipment and league fees.  And I'd venture a guess that most of Cornell's roster wasn't "home-grown" talent of sorts, rather kids who had the ability to be moved around to play in leagues like the USHL or BCHL by the time they hit their mid-late teens.  Doesn't strike me as a lower class type of move.

[RichH]

I think this "This is the end of Ivy/small school competitiveness" question been raised in every era since the beginning of national television coverage...probably even before.

I subscribe to all facets of Trotsky's manifesto outline.

I would like to see three things:

1) Increase of the game limit to be on par with the rest of the NCAA schools.
2) Allow earlier practice/season starts.
3) Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

Union still doesn't offer athletic scholarships, and up until 2004, neither did Colgate (leading to this ironic-sounding headline)

[Trotsky]

Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it.  Hello, NSA...

> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered?  Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs?  Or are there conference auto bids?

Edit: yes, I have learned to Google.  There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids.  It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get.  (Hint: they would get smoked.)

[css228]

There are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

You say that, but the pay to play model is increasingly pricing out middle class families. Not advocating scholarships for the wealthy or anything, just saying that when it comes to hockey financial aid may not be as helpful as we think.

[ursusminor]

Trotsky,

Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.

This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.

[Trotsky]

Trotsky,

Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.

This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.

I can work it out tonight.

[Josh '99]

It's a small sample size fluke.  Give it time.

But, also raise the games limit and let them start at the same time as everyone else, because why not?

[Weder]

Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it.  Hello, NSA...

> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered?  Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs?  Or are there conference auto bids?

Edit: yes, I have learned to Google.  There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids.  It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get.  (Hint: they would get smoked.)

Hm, I think that in many years the Ivy champion would have a decent shot at winning a first-round game. Patriot League teams win first-round games somewhat frequently, so that's a decent measuring stick.

[billhoward]

It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.

[TimV]

It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.

Unusual that football is kept out of postseason, no.  Always has been since the formalization of the league.

Irrational, unjustifiable, and shizophrenic given that other sports are not- yup.

But this is Cornell- who cares about football?  It's just something to occupy the lacrosse stadium in the fall semester.::whistle::

[RichH]

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered?  Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs?  Or are there conference auto bids?

Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...

In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14

Even this decade:
2010: http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1700&ATCLID=205014460
2011: http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20111112smzkl0

With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games.  In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game.  Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.