2012-13 Polls Men & Women

[Jim Hyla]

It takes a special fan to recall all the years Michigan went to bowl games as the highlight and not the outcomes. Lot of Patriots fans right now aren't recalling who has been the most dominant team in pro football since 2000.

Thanks, I'll take special in a positive light, but I think if you eliminate OSU (The, if you like), the rest of the Big Ten fans would have jumped at the chance to have had Bo's record. As I said before, we had someone to cheer for in December and Jan 1 and that means a lot. I'd rather go to tht FF and lose every year, than never go.

[Trotsky]

Has any Schafer team had meaningful success - in league or out - without being able to play the eternal cycle puck possession game we (ok, fine, I) love to watch?

I think you know the answer already. The Schafer offense is a one trick pony. When it works it is a good trick, when it does not it is pretty poor. Unfortuneately, it has not been all that successful in the past few years. Everyone in college hockey is familiar with our version of the trick and they know that is all we have in the bag.

It was a rhetorical question, yes, but there might have been a couple of seasons in there where Cornell won primarily on the strength of superb special teams rather than puck possession. Hard to say, though - winning possession battles tends to give you more PP chances.

Also, since you bring it up, let's play the "What have you done for me lately, Coach Schafer?" game. Over the past 4 full seasons, 78-43-18, 1 ECAC title, 2 NCAA QF appearances and 1 NCAA first-round loss. You assert that Cornell's game plan isn't working, and I do see a mediocre season and a 2-3 NCAA record in there. Ok, maybe we should overhaul our style to be more like Yale, they were a lot better - best in league, in fact - in those years. Well, a touch over 3 points per year and 1 ECAC title better (89-41-9, with 2 ECAC titles, 2 NCAA QF appearances, and 1 NCAA first-round loss). I'm not sure that justifies drastic measures. Ok, maybe Yale's style is too extreme in the other direction, let's find more of a middle ground. What about Union? 92-47-21 with 1 ECAC title, 1 FF appearance, and 1 NCAA first-round loss. The Frozen Four is great, and because that's so special I'd probably take Union's results over the other two even though, objectively speaking, Yale has had the best run. But Cornell is not far behind, and this in a 4-year window where the ECAC has, for the first time in ages, had 3 legitimately strong teams.

I see people on these boards - possibly even you - saying we should look at what the coach has accomplished recently and call him to account for his performance over the last several years. So I just took a look, and if I were Andy Noel looking at this in the last off-season I'd have given him a raise. Maybe I'd regret it now, but probably not - one bad season doesn't erase years of success, especially not when the past 4 seasons have been, objectively speaking, great.

I don't think stylistic gripes about Cornell's system are all that useful. Perhaps this is because I like defensively oriented hockey, so I think Cornell's approach is great. Even so, there are legitimate complaints about Schafer's teams. I've listed some of them in past seasons, and honestly I think they still hold. I've never really liked the insistence on keeping the umbrella on the PP year in and year out, assuming they're still doing that. Some years it's great, but when the personnel isn't there it looks like a perimeter passing drill hoping for a lucky bounce. Others have complained about a poor breakout, and while I believed the main issue was with inconsistency and lack of offensive depth among the defensemen I'm starting to think there's an adjustment the coaches need to make. It really seems like we're dependent on having 4, if not 6, d-men who are great with the puck, and I don't think that's tractable, at least not at the national level. Another common complaint when things are going poorly is the quality of the team's passing game. I don't think Cornell has *ever* been a great passing team under Schafer, although in the early 2000s they were pretty good. Is that coaching, recruiting, or both? I honestly have no idea, but that might be an interesting Monday morning QB kind of conversation.

Anyway, here's hoping this team gets its house in order and starts executing, otherwise we're in for a long second half and a short post-season.

This is a good post.  Thank you for taking the time to compose it.

[Towerroad]

Also, since you bring it up, let's play the "What have you done for me lately, Coach Schafer?" game. Over the past 4 full seasons, 78-43-18, 1 ECAC title, 2 NCAA QF appearances and 1 NCAA first-round loss. You assert that Cornell's game plan isn't working, and I do see a mediocre season and a 2-3 NCAA record in there. Ok, maybe we should overhaul our style to be more like Yale, they were a lot better - best in league, in fact - in those years. Well, a touch over 3 points per year and 1 ECAC title better (89-41-9, with 2 ECAC titles, 2 NCAA QF appearances, and 1 NCAA first-round loss). I'm not sure that justifies drastic measures. Ok, maybe Yale's style is too extreme in the other direction, let's find more of a middle ground. What about Union? 92-47-21 with 1 ECAC title, 1 FF appearance, and 1 NCAA first-round loss. The Frozen Four is great, and because that's so special I'd probably take Union's results over the other two even though, objectively speaking, Yale has had the best run. But Cornell is not far behind, and this in a 4-year window where the ECAC has, for the first time in ages, had 3 legitimately strong teams.

Tom

It is interesting that you asked this question, I did too. If you look at how consistently a team plays in the NCAA tournament as the ultimate measure of how good a program is the answer is interesting. I took the last 5 tournaments and made a spreadsheet of the number of games and wins each participant had over the 5 years. If you rank teams by the number of tournament wins and then by the winning percentage Cornell comes in tied with Yale at #16. (5 appearances, 2 wins).

I think #16 is probably a reasonable rank for Cornell year in and year out. Our program is not one of the elite programs (only from a hockey perspective) in the country. It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list. I am not calling for the coaches head, anyone can have a bad year.  I bleed as RED as you but, I have reached the point where I am skeptical that Cornell will reach the promised land with the program that we have now.

I share your hope for a better result but the logical part of my brain says not to invest in it.

LGR

[Trotsky]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

[Towerroad]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

[RichH]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

[Towerroad]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

[Jim Hyla]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

Not really, as I posted on another thread about Mich football and the Bo Schembechler era, there are a lot of teams below us who would love to be like us. In fact, I think many Harvard fans, all 2, would trade with us. Which is why I can't understand why they continue to get such good talent, and it goes to waste. But that's a topic for a different thread.

[Towerroad]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

Not really, as I posted on another thread about Mich football and the Bo Schembechler era, there are a lot of teams below us who would love to be like us. In fact, I think many Harvard fans, all 2, would trade with us. Which is why I can't understand why they continue to get such good talent, and it goes to waste. But that's a topic for a different thread.

Harvard has 2 fans? That means they doubled their fan base.

Perhaps the better way to state the case is, "If you were a middling team with an institutional mandate to improve would you choose to emulate Cornell or some team on the top 10 of my list?"

Another way to ask the question is: Is there anyone on the top 10 list that plays the same sort of defense first, endless cycle, puck control hockey we want to play? I am asking for real here if they do we might reasonably ask what they are doing better than we are.

[Trotsky]

I would have used CHN's history page

AHEM!

Edit: oh shit, that is incomplete too.    But still...

[RichH]

I would have used CHN's history page

AHEM!

Edit: oh shit, that is incomplete too.    But still...

Sorry, I only go there when I'm in the mood to spend a lot of time wading through your "data goulash." :-D

[marty]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

Not really, as I posted on another thread about Mich football and the Bo Schembechler era, there are a lot of teams below us who would love to be like us. In fact, I think many Harvard fans, all 2, would trade with us. Which is why I can't understand why they continue to get such good talent, and it goes to waste. But that's a topic for a different thread.

I can name that thread in two words.

[TimV]

TWO words?  You mean it's not pronounced "Harvardsucks"?::doh::

[Tom Lento]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

Not really, as I posted on another thread about Mich football and the Bo Schembechler era, there are a lot of teams below us who would love to be like us. In fact, I think many Harvard fans, all 2, would trade with us. Which is why I can't understand why they continue to get such good talent, and it goes to waste. But that's a topic for a different thread.

Harvard has 2 fans? That means they doubled their fan base.

Perhaps the better way to state the case is, "If you were a middling team with an institutional mandate to improve would you choose to emulate Cornell or some team on the top 10 of my list?"

Another way to ask the question is: Is there anyone on the top 10 list that plays the same sort of defense first, endless cycle, puck control hockey we want to play? I am asking for real here if they do we might reasonably ask what they are doing better than we are.

In broad strokes, Wisconsin, for sure. 2006 was like watching an intra-squad scrimmage with ridiculously high stakes, and the handful of more recent NCAA games I was able to catch suggested that they haven't changed their M.O. They are a lot better through the neutral zone than Cornell, but I don't know if that's game plan or talent. By reputation Notre Dame and UMD might qualify, but I've only seen parts of games featuring those teams.

What those teams are doing is they're giving scholarships and getting better talent, not necessarily in that order (although of course the former helps with the latter). It's possible that Cornell could do a better job of developing the talent it has, but what I saw up through about 2010 suggests otherwise. I haven't seen enough of the current Cornell teams to be able to comment on their development.

If the goal is to make Cornell a team with a legitimate national title shot every 2-4 years, it just won't happen. Cornell would have to leave the Ivy League first, and that's a lot bigger than hockey. Consistent title hopes are difficult to sustain for the Minnesotas of the world. Add in Ivy restrictions and you're looking at a real long shot before anybody has even gone out recruiting. I'm not saying Cornell Hockey has been performing at its absolute peak over the last 10-15 years, but it's pretty darn close.

I would love to see Schafer catch lightning in a bottle and get a national title run.

[Towerroad]

It is an open question in my mind as to whether we want to pay the price to move up on the list.

I am curious what you mean by this.

Here are a few. I think you will see why I made the comment

New Coach and Staff
Build a Hockey Pleasure Palace
Lower Academic Standards for Recruits
Leave the Ivy League
Offer Athletic Scholarships
Dig up Ned and see if we could get a little DNA

So, we are what we are a middling good hockey program. In a good year we are Tournament fodder. I am not sure we want to pay the price to be like N.DAK or BU or Ferris.

Yes. Let's strive to be like Ferris St. They are truly a historical juggernaut of a program every school looks to emulate. What with all those NCAA tournament apparances. Both of them. With FSU sitting at 21 in the PWR, I treat their nice run last year as a "lightning in a bottle" tournament. Good for them, but wanting to trade CU's record for Ferris's is just silly. (NB: I would have used CHN's history page, but FSU hasn't been credited with their 2012 performance. Adam.)

Sorry, I didn't want to undercut your point, but I just had to comment on what a short-term memory people have about what constitutes a dominant, always-near-the-top national program. Ten years ago, everybody in the East wanted to be like UNH. Six years ago it was Maine, now it's BC. Teams hit cycles.

Yeah, Ferris was probably not the best example but by the metric I used they ranked higher (3 wins, 67% beats 2 wins and 40%). Here is the top 20 in order.

BC
Minn Duluth
Miami
Notre Dame
N. Dak
Mich
BU
Wisc.
Ferris
UNH
RIT
VT
Union
Minn.
Bemidgi
Yale
Cornell
Lowell
Denver
St Cloud

Let's face the facts, it has been 40 years since anyone has wanted to be like us.

Not really, as I posted on another thread about Mich football and the Bo Schembechler era, there are a lot of teams below us who would love to be like us. In fact, I think many Harvard fans, all 2, would trade with us. Which is why I can't understand why they continue to get such good talent, and it goes to waste. But that's a topic for a different thread.

Harvard has 2 fans? That means they doubled their fan base.

Perhaps the better way to state the case is, "If you were a middling team with an institutional mandate to improve would you choose to emulate Cornell or some team on the top 10 of my list?"

Another way to ask the question is: Is there anyone on the top 10 list that plays the same sort of defense first, endless cycle, puck control hockey we want to play? I am asking for real here if they do we might reasonably ask what they are doing better than we are.

In broad strokes, Wisconsin, for sure. 2006 was like watching an intra-squad scrimmage with ridiculously high stakes, and the handful of more recent NCAA games I was able to catch suggested that they haven't changed their M.O. They are a lot better through the neutral zone than Cornell, but I don't know if that's game plan or talent. By reputation Notre Dame and UMD might qualify, but I've only seen parts of games featuring those teams.

What those teams are doing is they're giving scholarships and getting better talent, not necessarily in that order (although of course the former helps with the latter). It's possible that Cornell could do a better job of developing the talent it has, but what I saw up through about 2010 suggests otherwise. I haven't seen enough of the current Cornell teams to be able to comment on their development.

If the goal is to make Cornell a team with a legitimate national title shot every 2-4 years, it just won't happen. Cornell would have to leave the Ivy League first, and that's a lot bigger than hockey. Consistent title hopes are difficult to sustain for the Minnesotas of the world. Add in Ivy restrictions and you're looking at a real long shot before anybody has even gone out recruiting. I'm not saying Cornell Hockey has been performing at its absolute peak over the last 10-15 years, but it's pretty darn close.

I would love to see Schafer catch lightning in a bottle and get a national title run.

I think we are roughly on the same page. The logical parts of our respective brains says that Cornell is and will continue to be roughly #15 in the country if we keep doing what we are doing. The reality is we are Tournament fodder.

Our hearts of course dream of a Championship.